RAF Puma - What's the point?

[anonymous-user]

Has SARTU gone pop now the service is privatised?

[wildcat45]

Do they still train for SAR bearing in mind it's now gone civvy? We don't do CSAR do we?

[aeropilot]

mph1977 said:

'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin

And Wildcat

[yellowjack]

Is the captured Argentinian Puma still going?

I remember seeing it static at air displays in '83/'84, along with a Pucara, and it went for use as a ground instructional airframe or something? Then it got brought up to RAF standard and went back into the air? Or I'm talking rubbish and ought to shut up?

Edit:

I think I'm remembering right. I found this... http://en.mercopress.com/2001/06/11/raf-using-arge...

Although it turns out that I must have seen it in the September 1982 St Athan show, as it apparently went back to RNAS Fleetlands after that show. Then it was bumped about by overland transport between Westland, Odiham, and Fleetlands between 1984 and 1992, before emerging from Westland rebuilt as an airworthy Puma HC.1, serial ZE449, and going to Benson with 33 Sqn in 2001.

Apparently the SAS had some ex-Argentine helicopters too...

ZE410: Argentine Army A.109A serial AE-334.
ZE411: Argentine Army A.109A serial AE-331.

... https://www.flickr.com/photos/40263244@N04/9719382...

And bits of Argentine Chinooks have been mated to RAF Chinooks during repairs too.

Edited by yellowjack on Tuesday 26th April 16:49

[FourWheelDrift]

yellowjack said:

Is the captured Argentinian Puma still going?

I remember seeing it static at air displays in '83/'84, along with a Pucara, and it went for use as a ground instructional airframe or something? Then it got brought up to RAF standard and went back into the air? Or I'm talking rubbish and ought to shut up?

Nope crashed in 2009 see ZE499 on here - http://www.ukserials.com/losses-2009.htm

[yellowjack]

FourWheelDrift said:

Nope crashed in 2009 see ZE499 on here - http://www.ukserials.com/losses-2009.htm

Thanks for that - it didn't show up in the top page of results when I found the serial and googled it. So it would still be flying if someone hadn't 'bent' it on a Grand Prix in Kenya. I'm not imagining it. Phew!

[ecsrobin]

wildcat45 said:

Do they still train for SAR bearing in mind it's now gone civvy? We don't do CSAR do we?

As far as I know they still have SARTU as the crews need to be taught the skill in case it's used (for instance a lynx on a warship)

[mph1977]

aeropilot said:

mph1977 said:

'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin

And Wildcat

Which despite having a lot less commonality with previous generations is still part of the lynx family ... (If you were truely observant you'd have noted i didn't distinguish between different variants of the lynx family with regard to the AAC)

[mph1977]

wildcat45 said:

Do they still train for SAR bearing in mind it's now gone civvy? We don't do CSAR do we?

all RAF and most / all FAA helicopter crew recieve SAR training as

1. we still Provide SAR in Cyprus

2. we provide organic SAR to our own operations

3. we provide MERT and CSAR to our own operations / coalition ops

[anonymous-user]

mph1977 said:

all RAF and most / all FAA helicopter crew recieve SAR training as

1. we still Provide SAR in Cyprus

2. we provide organic SAR to our own operations

3. we provide MERT and CSAR to our own operations / coalition ops

MERT is not SAR, nothing like.
And last time I looked the UK has no CSAR capability. It's a whole different ball game to dragging errant surfers out of the waves or lifting tired walkers off Snowdon.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th April 18:37

[mph1977]

Crossflow Kid said:

mph1977 said:

all RAF and most / all FAA helicopter crew recieve SAR training as

1. we still Provide SAR in Cyprus

2. we provide organic SAR to our own operations

3. we provide MERT and CSAR to our own operations / coalition ops

MERT is not SAR, nothing like.
And last time I looked the UK has no CSAR capability. It's a whole different ball game to dragging errant surfers out of the waves or lifting tired walkers off Snowdon.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Tuesday 26th April 18:37

in what respect is MERT 'nothing like SAR' ?

define 'no CSAR capability' or do you mean there isn't a specific unit tasked with CSAR because HMF equips the (wo)man rather than manning the equipment like the 3 of the 4 US forces (USMC being the notable exception)


part of the reason for the civilianisation of UK SAR was becasue it distracted a significant number of aircraft and crew to undertake what is primarily a civilian tasking ,

you need to look back at hisotry as to why airborne SAR was a military tasking ...

[wolfracesonic]

Well done chaps and chappes's, you've excelled yourselves on the impenetrable acronym front: Could be a record

[anonymous-user]

mph1977 said:

in what respect is MERT 'nothing like SAR' ?

define 'no CSAR capability' or do you mean there isn't a specific unit tasked with CSAR because HMF equips the (wo)man rather than manning the equipment like the 3 of the 4 US forces (USMC being the notable exception)


part of the reason for the civilianisation of UK SAR was becasue it distracted a significant number of aircraft and crew to undertake what is primarily a civilian tasking ,

you need to look back at hisotry as to why airborne SAR was a military tasking ...

MERT: Medical Emergency Response Team. A medical team of (usually) four people consisting of a mix of doctors and paramedics in the company of other specialist such as anaesthetists or aeromedical nurses. Usually deploys in Chinook with 2 X Apache escort in hostile theatres of war to extricate VSI casualties who have already been triaged and stabilised as best possible by battlefield medics. Primary function is medical.
SAR: Search And Rescue. An aircrew team consisting of pilot/copilot, and winchman/winch operator with varying degrees of paramedic training who conduct search operations in peacetime theatres with a view to recovering casualties to a safe location, with first aid en route. Primary function is rescue.

As for CSAR, it's a specialist role which requires a whole package of dedicated aircraft, vehicles and boats/ships and the bottom line is we just don't have any. Our SH crews are very good and have undertaken "CSAR type" missions in the past but saying it's just another skill that any crew could do is rather naive. The Septics have dedicated assets for a reason.
And I dare you, double dare you, to go up to a USAF pararescue crewman and tell him he just "Mans the equipment".

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th April 19:49

[ecsrobin]

mph1977 said:

aeropilot said:

mph1977 said:

'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin

And Wildcat

Which despite having a lot less commonality with previous generations is still part of the lynx family ... (If you were truely observant you'd have noted i didn't distinguish between different variants of the lynx family with regard to the AAC)

I think you have outdated knowledge on our armed forces capabilities the AAC fly only the Lynx mk9 (and wildcat) the mk7 stopped flying last year.

Not defining between chinook mk4, mk5 and mk6 is ok but wildcat is quite a different platform to the Lynx (even if it is a lynx that's flown through ripspeed)

[ecsrobin]

mph1977 said:

in what respect is MERT 'nothing like SAR' ?

define 'no CSAR capability' or do you mean there isn't a specific unit tasked with CSAR because HMF equips the (wo)man rather than manning the equipment like the 3 of the 4 US forces (USMC being the notable exception)


part of the reason for the civilianisation of UK SAR was becasue it distracted a significant number of aircraft and crew to undertake what is primarily a civilian tasking ,

you need to look back at hisotry as to why airborne SAR was a military tasking ...

MERT is certainly nowhere near what SAR is.

MERT you take a highly skilled set of individuals to the battle field to a specific location where the aircraft lands on (with support from air assets and troops on the A/C and they conduct some pretty incredible medical work.

SAR you generally look for the casualty for a short while before often having to winch them onto the aircraft where the casualty is stabilised prior to onward travel. (Certain situations allow the crewman/paramedic to conduct this stabilisation on the ground prior to winching)

[aeropilot]

ecsrobin said:

mph1977 said:

aeropilot said:

mph1977 said:

'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin

And Wildcat

Which despite having a lot less commonality with previous generations is still part of the lynx family ... (If you were truely observant you'd have noted i didn't distinguish between different variants of the lynx family with regard to the AAC)

I think you have outdated knowledge on our armed forces capabilities

As well as being a condescending c*ck....

[wildcat45]

I'm quite interested in CSAR.

There's a NATO Euripen nation that does it. I forget who.

So what sort of structure is increase led in terms of hardware and organisation?

[jamieduff1981]

Crossflow Kid said:

They'll never end up at sea by the way. Far too high a CoG to go anywhere near a pitching deck.

Perhaps not for British military operations, and I'm happy to agree that other more squat types are better suited to decks, but the Singapore military operate Pumas from ships' decks happily enough:




and the basic airframe has been in continuous use in the rather rough North Sea with civilian operators for decades which comprise lots of fixed platforms but also lots of floaters and diving support vessels etc with helidecks.

There are undoubtedly better aircraft for landing on decks, but Pumas are already at sea and have been for a long time

[Surfr]

wildcat45 said:

I'm quite interested in CSAR.

There's a NATO Euripen nation that does it. I forget who.

Portugal? I'm sure Lloyd will be along shortly with some photos..

[IanH755]

We did have a very short lived specialist CSAR flight in 2005-06. It was part of the Merlin force which had two dedicated crews and engineers (me) and two dedicated RAF Regt sections for Force protection (mainly) and cas-evac (an attempt to make PJ's) but we used which ever merlin was available as they could be role fit within hours. However after about a year (just after the Merlin Force entered Iraq) the fleet was too busy to lose the crews and where we operated always had specialist US support so the whole thing was dropped but we had loads of internal promotional pictures taken as we showed off our new ability to the rest of the RAF.

Edited by IanH755 on Thursday 28th April 11:39