RAF Puma - What's the point?

[lloyd h]

Crossflow Kid said:

And I dare you, double dare you, to go up to a USAF pararescue crewman and tell him he just "Mans the equipment".

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Tuesday 26th April 19:49

This. Having worked with crews recently, listening to them talk quite frankly about previous rescues etc, they certainly do not just "man the equipment".

Surfr said:

Portugal? I'm sure Lloyd will be along shortly with some photos..

Yes and no, mainly they specialise in the maritime SAR role. However they do train for CSAR, I flew on CASEVAC sortie with them a few years ago and they are definitely more than capable of performing the task. They were asked to go downrange to Libya at one point I think when the air strikes were ramping up - they were prepared to go but things got pulled at the last minute I think. Instead of having to role fit like the RAF I think they have 1 or 2 aircraft flown in the CSAR config, the rest are then in the SAR and maritime surveillance configs I think. This is all from memory though.

Are the Italians not ramping up for CSAR as well now with the delivery of the CAESAR EH101?

[Deerfoot]

mph1977 said:

AAC operates Lynx and Apache

And Bell 212.....

[anonymous-user]

IanH755 said:

We did have a very short lived specialist CSAR flight in 2005-06. It was part of the Merlin force which had two dedicated crews and engineers (me) and two dedicated RAF Regt sections for Force protection (mainly) and cas-evac (an attempt to make PJ's) but we used which ever merlin was available as they could be role fit within hours. However after about a year (just after the Merlin Force entered Iraq) the fleet was too busy to lose the crews and where we operated always had specialist US support so the whole thing was dropped but we had loads of internal promotional pictures taken as we showed off our new ability to the rest of the RAF.

Edited by IanH755 on Thursday 28th April 11:39

Sounds more like the Merlin Force trying to prove itself useful for something.
And Rocks doing casevac....yeah that'll work

[IanH755]

Crossflow Kid said:

Sounds more like the Merlin Force trying to prove itself useful for something.
And Rocks doing casevac....yeah that'll work

We did MERT for all the coalition forces operating in Southern Iraq from 2005 to 2009, C-IED teams in Afghanistan 2010 to 2012 plus a whole bunch of of normal tasking so I'd say we were pretty useful, although as I actually have Merlin experience I find it hard to understand "the hate" from those who don't.

Plus the Rocks have been doing MERT protection in Afghanistan now since 2007 with the Chinook force so, again, I'm not sure why "the hate" for Rocks doing exactly the same thing on Merlins? My use of the word cas-evac in my OP only refers to evacuating the casualty. As I mentioned they were not being trained as PJ's or MERT medics, they were there to protect the downed aircrew and get them aboard the Merlin as quickly/safely as possible for the Medics to sort if req'd. What, if any, extra training they had to perform that task is something I have no knowledge of.

[ecsrobin]

IanH755 said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Sounds more like the Merlin Force trying to prove itself useful for something.
And Rocks doing casevac....yeah that'll work

We did MERT for all the coalition forces operating in Southern Iraq from 2005 to 2009, C-IED teams in Afghanistan 2010 to 2012 plus a whole bunch of of normal tasking so I'd say we were pretty useful, although as I actually have Merlin experience I find it hard to understand "the hate" from those who don't.

Plus the Rocks have been doing MERT protection in Afghanistan now since 2007 with the Chinook force so, again, I'm not sure why "the hate" for Rocks doing exactly the same thing on Merlins? My use of the word cas-evac in my OP only refers to evacuating the casualty. As I mentioned they were not being trained as PJ's or MERT medics, they were there to protect the downed aircrew and get them aboard the Merlin as quickly/safely as possible for the Medics to sort if req'd. What, if any, extra training they had to perform that task is something I have no knowledge of.

You arent aware crossflow is ex chinook crew.

The hate comes from the fact the merlins always went U/S so the rest of the JHC fleet picked up the slack.

[anonymous-user]

It's no so much hate for the Merlin force, it's more sympathy.

Anyhow, MERT with a bit of RAF Regt thrown in still isn't true CSAR is it?

[IanH755]

ecsrobin said:

The hate comes from the fact the merlins always went U/S so the rest of the JHC fleet picked up the slack.

"always" - now it's my turn for the rolleyes

It's funny, other than the Puma's that definitely weren't at BIAP ( ) I don't remember a single JHC asset other than the Merlin at being used at JHFI in 4 years during the numerous tours I did there so I'm not sure what "slack" you're referring to, although yes, there were two grey RN Sea Kings there with some lovely cameras but the JHC Junglies only arrived as we left for Afghanistan in mid '09 where our size was ideal for transporting the C-IED teams about (and the mail too). However "at times" our serviceability rate wasn't the greatest at JHFA (poor build quality of components designed only for European weather for the most part), just like other JHC assets went through crests and troughs too.

Crossflow Kid said:

Anyhow, MERT with a bit of RAF Regt thrown in still isn't true CSAR is it?

What is "true CSAR"? My understanding is that CSAR is specially trained aircrew in specially equipped aircraft picking up downed pilots with a self protection force containing people able to provide advanced medical aid? Now was the Merlin flight as good as the USAF Pedro's? no to be fair we weren't as we lacked experience, but for a very short time they were tasked for the same job.

Anyway, if I seem overly defensive about criticism of the Merlin it's because I'm quite proud of the time I spent on the Merlin force, even when they kicked us engineers off the Squadrons to make the groundcrew a separate entity (MEF) - Not that I'm bitter

Edited by IanH755 on Thursday 28th April 20:34

[anonymous-user]

IanH755 said:

What is "true CSAR"? My understanding is that CSAR is specially trained aircrew in specially equipped aircraft picking up downed pilots with a self protection force containing people able to provide advanced medical aid? Now was the Merlin flight as good as the USAF Pedro's? no to be fair we weren't as we lacked experience, but for a very short time they were tasked for the same job.

Go to the crewroom and have a look down the back of the sofa. Chances are you'll find a dog eared copy of "That Others May Live" lurking there. Give it a read.
CSAR is about specially trained crews and specially equipped aircraft, but way beyond what you appear to think of as "special". We're talking pseudo-SF crews taking one, maybe two, agile and discrete but heavily armed and well defended aircraft potentially hundreds of miles behind the FLET (taking in some AAR along the way) to put a tiny team on the ground (perhaps just one or two bods) to locate, authenticate, medically stabilise and recover isolated personnel largely without being detected. It's more than just experience too....a USAF PJ will be trained to paramedic standards, be able to parachute deploy at both high and low level, have close protection/CQB training, and operate as a traditional winchman.
Now, I know our SH crews are good, and that the UK military is respected around the world for its professionalism, but that's as much about knowing what you can't do as what you can.

[petop]

Going back to the OP's question, they are actually doing a good job in Kabul at the moment. They took me on a rather pleasant trip over Kabul the other day.

[wildcat45]

Thanks for your replies, especially for the insight into CSAR,

It's a subject that fascinates me. The blend of highly trained and specialized soldiering, medical capability, SAR, skilled and specialized airmanship, specifically fitted aircraft and the logistics behind it

My only experience as a civilian is a few trips with 202, 771, (Where I was used as the dope on the rope) and an Air Ambulance. That all seemed impressive and very skilled but CSAR is clearly a different world.

Cheers.

[IanH755]

Crossflow Kid said:

Go to the crewroom and have a look down the back of the sofa. Chances are you'll find a dog eared copy of "That Others May Live" lurking there. Give it a read.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I have an immense respect for the guys and girls on the Pedro fleets, but that book is how the USAF does things and the USAF is not the RAF, we do things differently based on our own experiences as you are aware.

Our MERT vs USAF Pedros in Afghanistan is a good example where we were both doing exactly the same job but go about it in a completely different way. So just because the USAF does CSAR in a particular way doesn't mean that, because the RAF decided to "do" CSAR differently, the RAF didn't have a CSAR (Joint Personnel Recovery to give it's it's proper UK title) for that limited time period.