Discussion
pushthebutton said:
surveyor said:
Surely the big difference between them is the A380 was not on fire, and had the fire crew on the scene in seconds rather than minutes.
The question is valid for all scenarios IMO.Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
el stovey said:
Don't Boeing make it clear in the FCTM that they advise you use the slides in this scenario. Fire and spiked fuel. They even say if there's any doubt use the slides?
Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Exactly my thoughts stovey, I personally think pushthebutton is playing devils advocate here, it would take a very brave/ foolish pilot to not order an evacuation when presented with that scenario.Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Yes we do have a standby call for the cc.
el stovey said:
Don't Boeing make it clear in the FCTM that they advise you use the slides in this scenario. Fire and spiked fuel. They even say if there's any doubt use the slides?
Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Exactly my thoughts stovey, I personally think pushthebutton is playing devils advocate here, it would take a very brave/ foolish pilot to not order an evacuation when presented with that scenario.Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Yes we do have a standby call for the cc.
Edited by rs4al on Wednesday 29th June 13:47
rs4al said:
el stovey said:
Don't Boeing make it clear in the FCTM that they advise you use the slides in this scenario. Fire and spiked fuel. They even say if there's any doubt use the slides?
Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Exactly my thoughts stovey, I personally think pushthebutton is playing devils advocate here, it would take a very brave/ foolish pilot to not order an evacuation when presented with that scenario.Good luck sitting in the dock/your boss's office and reading that out and then explaining that you decided to keep them all on board.
Edited by rs4al on Wednesday 29th June 13:47
Combining those two items, I think that the fire crews are best placed and appropriately trained to be a valuable source of information. If, in this case, the fire chief was in contact with the Captain; and assured him that the fire was not spreading rapidly and was under control; or will possibly be extinguished imminently, then that's a valid source of information. It'd definitely make me think twice about evacuating. We'll find out whether this was the case or not.
I don't mind if I'm right or wrong regarding this particular incident. I think there's a possibility of pattern matching a real world scenario to a well-rehearsed fire related evacuation in the sim whereas you may be presented with other, possibly better options in real life. But, if this was the case here, then I don't think the Captain will have many issues explaining his course of action given that there were zero casualties and we can't predict how many there would have been during the evacuation. I think it's neither brave or foolish if your sources of information are qualified and valid. In my opinion it's "using all available sources of information to determine the safest course of action."
What caused the return to Singapore in the first place. Was it due to an oil leak or fuel leak. What subsequently caused the fire. What were the flight deck indications before and after touch down. Was the engine shut down or still running, albeit at idle thrust.
What sort of information would the cabin crew provide. What sort of information would air traffic control and the fire crew provide. Based on information from all three parties, whose information will you choose to help make your decision.
You can't see the engines or wings from the flight deck. You could open a window to help with decision making. You could utilise the onboard camera. Will a crew have the spare capacity to utilise those options. You will gather all sorts of information to help make the decision to evacuate or not. Some of the information may well be conflicting. You may have very little information to go on. There may well have been no fire indication within the flight deck.
All safe, good judgement or good luck. Time will tell.
What sort of information would the cabin crew provide. What sort of information would air traffic control and the fire crew provide. Based on information from all three parties, whose information will you choose to help make your decision.
You can't see the engines or wings from the flight deck. You could open a window to help with decision making. You could utilise the onboard camera. Will a crew have the spare capacity to utilise those options. You will gather all sorts of information to help make the decision to evacuate or not. Some of the information may well be conflicting. You may have very little information to go on. There may well have been no fire indication within the flight deck.
All safe, good judgement or good luck. Time will tell.
PTB does make some valid points and I can see exactly where he's coming from, but as I've already stated, it's an OUT for me! And that comes down to risk mitigation (they love that phrase in my outfit just now). Plane's on fire, FS are minutes away but not on site yet. Do I risk possible broken ankles/sprained wrists or possible smoke/fumes entering the cabin even when doors are closed? God help having to do an evac after the smoke starts to appear in the cabin.
Now lets be careful, we're starting to sound like folks from prune
Now lets be careful, we're starting to sound like folks from prune
Yup. Probably a good idea to pop into the flight deck first and shut down the engines that are still running. Otherwise we'd see you on the tarmac, but we wouldn't recognise you.Chuck328 said:
PTB does make some valid points and I can see exactly where he's coming from, but as I've already stated, it's an OUT for me! And that comes down to risk mitigation (they love that phrase in my outfit just now). Plane's on fire, FS are minutes away but not on site yet. Do I risk possible broken ankles/sprained wrists or possible smoke/fumes entering the cabin even when doors are closed? God help having to do an evac after the smoke starts to appear in the cabin.
Now lets be careful, we're starting to sound like folks from prune
Yeah, that's fine. With all the information you have and a lack of qualified advice from the yet to arrive fire crew, then the passengers are safer outside the aircraft.Now lets be careful, we're starting to sound like folks from prune
Chuck328 said:
Yeh I'd say that's pretty much spot on. It is a tough call though, but really...plane on fire, everybody out...
It was this bit that interested me. This is always where the sim scenario ends, but real life is ongoing. In the UK at the major airports we're going to get really good info from the on site fire crews. They'll have thermal imaging equipment to see hot spots; they'll be able to tell you where the fire is moving. They'll be potentially fighting the fire effectively and, if there's no smoke in the cabin, everybody is safer inside at that point. The box-ticking evacuation sim response at this point could see the fire crews moving back, the fire no longer being fought effectively and it now spreading quicker toward and inside the fuselage. What was the bigger risk? Who was being most effective at mitigating that risk? An evacuation at that point could turn a safely and effectively managed situation into something very different.What I've tried to do is give some benefit of the doubt to the SIA crew. I'm sure that the flow of information and timings will make interesting reading and we'll undoubtedly learn from this, but I'd be a bit wary of the sim response of plane on fire = everybody out - which we all do and get a pat on the back afterwards
.Edited by pushthebutton on Thursday 30th June 10:41
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