Airliner lifecycle ?

[Willy Nilly]

Thanks for the engine answers. I have another question about them.

I got the impression on some website or another, that once the engines are at the end of life in a plane that they get used as power plants, for example pumping gas, is this true? Obviously I expect they use the engine core without the fan attatched...

[Talksteer]

Willy Nilly said:

Thanks for the engine answers. I have another question about them.

I got the impression on some website or another, that once the engines are at the end of life in a plane that they get used as power plants, for example pumping gas, is this true? Obviously I expect they use the engine core without the fan attatched...

In short not true.

Once an aero engine reaches the end of its life it's scrap.

The basic core designs of Aero engines can be used as power plants for naval vessels and on oil rigs and gas pipelines.

They tend to be on applications where weight is important, for electrical power generation heavy frame gas turbines are used as they last longer and are optimised for a combined cycle with a stream turbine.

In these applications they tend to outlive the aero engine in production. It should be pointed out that they are aero based

The one exception is the gas turbine powered motorbike which runs on life expired helicopter engines.

[hidetheelephants]

mph1977 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Aerosur (Bolivia) still flies a 727-200 (44-49 years old)

look at the tail numbers of Some of the US (in US service or US sourced) military transport or airliner dervied ISTAR aircraft... e.g. the Project Airseeker RC - 135V rivet joint aircraft just delivered to the RAF are 1964 aircraft.

Trigger's broom though, those airframes were zero-houred with a complete refurbishment.

[mph1977]

hidetheelephants said:

mph1977 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Aerosur (Bolivia) still flies a 727-200 (44-49 years old)

look at the tail numbers of Some of the US (in US service or US sourced) military transport or airliner dervied ISTAR aircraft... e.g. the Project Airseeker RC - 135V rivet joint aircraft just delivered to the RAF are 1964 aircraft.

Trigger's broom though, those airframes were zero-houred with a complete refurbishment.

most aircraft reach trigger's broom status eventually

[El Capitano]

FourWheelDrift said:

Aerosur (Bolivia) still flies a 727-200 (44-49 years old)

Seems Aerosur ceased operations in 2012, so they flew a 40-45 yr old 727-200.

Yea they did up until 2012 as you say.... Shame they are no longer operating, great airline that I had the pleasure of working with for 6 months in 2011.

[MonkeyBusiness]

I watched a Jet2 757 take off this weekend and a quick Google showed it to be 28 years old. Most of the Jet2 fleet must be end of life.
They are getting their moneys worth out of their fleet.

[NordicCrankShaft]

Great thread. Love finding a little gem like this on PH makes all the other BS more bearable.

[Talksteer]

hidetheelephants said:

mph1977 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Aerosur (Bolivia) still flies a 727-200 (44-49 years old)

look at the tail numbers of Some of the US (in US service or US sourced) military transport or airliner dervied ISTAR aircraft... e.g. the Project Airseeker RC - 135V rivet joint aircraft just delivered to the RAF are 1964 aircraft.

Trigger's broom though, those airframes were zero-houred with a complete refurbishment.

Also the military never put that many hours on their aircraft compared to what airlines do.

For example the US KC135 refueling fleet averages less than 400 hours per plane per year.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/air...

The UK Rivet Joints had 22,000 hours on them as tankers over the 50 years they had been in service before they were converted.

Plenty of RR engines manage more hours on that before overhaul!

The Rivet Joints will have a design life of around 20,000 cycles so they will have plenty of life left.

[Eric Mc]

This Boeing 727 (G-OSRA) is taking part in the flying display at Farnborough this week. It was originally built in 1984 as a freighter for Federal Express making it one of the last 727s built. However, it is still 32 years old now - and put on a lively display when I saw it doing its validation routine last week.

[DuraAce]

hidetheelephants said:

mph1977 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Aerosur (Bolivia) still flies a 727-200 (44-49 years old)

look at the tail numbers of Some of the US (in US service or US sourced) military transport or airliner dervied ISTAR aircraft... e.g. the Project Airseeker RC - 135V rivet joint aircraft just delivered to the RAF are 1964 aircraft.

Trigger's broom though, those airframes were zero-houred with a complete refurbishment.

Although they were extensively refurbished they weren't zero houred. They are around 25, 000 hours.

[stain]

Some 'end of service life' airliners end up as VIP jets as it can be quite a cheap way into that market. I've seen a 727 BBJ at Stansted which must really shift with only a few people on board. When I was a tech for the worlds favourite airline 737-200s were being offloaded for only a couple of mill each.

With newer stuff you are able to claim under warranty much as you do with a car. I forget the exact terms but my airline saved £millions in unscheduled maintenance costs this way. And as has already been said there are many performance penalties contained within the contracts. At one point we had issues with the GE90 on the (then new) 777 which threatened the whole fleet. Not only were Boeing and GE liable for penalty clause payments but they had to loan new engines in the meantime, which was great until they ran out of engines. It all got quite messy.

The subject of how aircraft are designed, bought and managed is a vast and interesting one. It takes some very big brains indeed.

[J4CKO]

My son, the one who is doing the apprenticeship with Thomas cook is currently flying on G-TCCA, had a look on flightradar and it used to have a different reg, now 22 years old and a few years back had this happen from a hard landing in punta Cana.

http://www.7daysinparadise.com/smf/index.php?topic...

apparently a pilot in training came in a little hard, must have been a hell of a smack to wrinkle the fuselage !

Wonder how long they will keep that one on the fleet seeing as it is "Cat D"

[Eric Mc]

I flew in a Dan Air 727 that had run off the end of the runway at Acapulco in a previous life.

[Speed 3]

J4CKO said:

Wonder how long they will keep that one on the fleet seeing as it is "Cat D"

More like a Cat C


You'd be surprised how many have significant repairs through their lives for one reason or another. Ground Handling damage happens every day, lightning strikes common and hard landings not that rare. Even overruns like that one can get rebuilt if there is an economic case. That BA 777 that had an uncontained engine failure in Vegas was not written of, despite its age. When I worked for a well-known airline, we sold some A321's to Airbus. On one's very last day of revenue service a baggage loader put a 10' slice down the lower fuselage.

[FourWheelDrift]

Just thought about the obvious long lasting jet airliner that still flew, John Travolta's 707-138B, built in 1964 and 52 years old this year. Not sure if it has flown much in the last 2 years since being in for maintenance but he still has it.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/John-Travolta-G...

[Eric Mc]

The remaining USAF KC-135 fleet is nearing 60 years old now.

[Countdown]

Speed 3 said:

When I worked for a well-known airline, we sold some A321's to Airbus.....

Why? Had they run out?

Seriously though, what do theydo? Refurbish and re-sell?

[JuniorD]

Jamesgt said:

That story is not totally accurate but what I can assure you it was the boss responsible for that incident. I've heard many stories and the truth is in there somewhere.

Unbusy said:

Didnt they test the landing gear outside the hanger in Cardiff as well some years ago?
Fresh off a major check, no pins in, sorting out a snag.
Landing gear selected Up.
The gear retracted correctly and the airframe shuddered onto the ground.
i always wondered if the guy responsable just got his coat and went home.
How do you explain that away to the boss?

Different set of facts and circumstances but outcome the same, from another thread:

onyx39 said:

JuniorD said:

I witnessed the same thing pictured above but involving a BA 747 (G-AWNE) in September 1997 at Hatton Cross. Unfortunately no photos seem to exist.

Obviously apart from this one

[Speed 3]

Countdown said:

Speed 3 said:

When I worked for a well-known airline, we sold some A321's to Airbus.....

Why? Had they run out?

Seriously though, what do theydo? Refurbish and re-sell?

Yup, they were effectively trade-ins as we were buying rather a lot of A320's. Think they ended up in one of the former soviet states. It was a bit of a painful transaction as Airbus are more geared to selling new than buying used.

One of the issues with repair damage is if its a non-flush repair that carries an aerodynamic fuel penalty or requires reinspection or lowered life limit criteria the buyer or lessor will not be happy. Airbus are buggers for classing all structural repairs as "temporary" even with their own teams carrying out the work.

[Eric Mc]

Boeing have done this for years. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, they bought back dozens of Boeing 707s. These were used in a major re-engining of the USAF's KC-135 fleet.