Given up with Southern Rail.

Given up with Southern Rail.

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martin_b

Original Poster:

97 posts

179 months

Monday 4th July 2016
quotequote all
I've just about had it with Southern rail, it unreliable at the best of times, and now with all the sick leave just a joke.
I live near J8M25 and need to get to Oxford Circus.

I have considerable fexabiltiy over my working hours so my new plan is drive to Morden Tube 5AMish then tube it to Oxford circus, leaving for return trip around 3:30pm I reckon this will be about half the price of a dialy train ticket, ( i can usually work from home one day a week and am often abroad so no point in a season)

Does anyone do anyhting similar or have any thoughts on my plan?

cheers

martin

RemyMartin

6,759 posts

204 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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Southern are awful. Probably the worst Train operating company in business. Well Govia.

Be nice if the franchise was pulled out from under their feet.

Greshamst

2,028 posts

119 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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I really feel for all of those that have to use Southern. I thought Thameslink were sh|t but Southern really are an extra layer of hell.
I can't imagine how frustrating the past few months will have been, delayed and cancelled trains mixed with massive overcrowding.

I wish they'd sort their Union issue out, it seems to revolve around train drivers being responsible for closing doors. The union seem to be digging their heels in too much, and the closet-sickness striking is causing misery for thousands of people.

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm struggling to understand the union's belligerence - the Cambridge-Kings Cross and Cambridge-Liverpool Street services have been DOO for years, and at rush hour they are also 12 coach trains.

HRL

3,329 posts

218 months

ashleyman

6,962 posts

98 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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Your plan sounds fine but where will you park at Morden? There's not much there I don't think.

If you do go via Morden, it's quicker to jump off at Stockwell and swap to the Victoria line.

Alternatively, I've not had much issue with the Southern trains on the Dorking - Victoria line. I go via Cheam, there's lots of free uncontrolled parking near Cornwall Road which is a short walk from Cheam station. You can get a fast train from Cheam - Victoria that will only stop at Sutton & Clapham Junction - takes about 15-20 minutes most days and if you go towards the back of the train you'll even get a seat!

I would expect that at 5AM you'd be ok, but that route is my first choice of route into London and it's hardly ever delayed. Going via Morden is good, but getting there and parking can sometimes take a while so the time saved by going on the tube is sometimes counteracted by the driving/parking time.

Edited by ashleyman on Monday 4th July 14:39

valiant

10,066 posts

159 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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Mind you, if you rely on drivers/guards doing overtime to run a full timetable and then deny staff to do overtime so they can't claw back wages lost to strike action, is it any wonder trains are being cancelled?

Employ enough drivers and guards to begin with and you wouldn't be cancelling 350 trains a day.

DanL

6,177 posts

264 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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Where there are no guards on trains and automated doors, the "is it safe to move off?" role is generally taken up by a guy stood on the platform, who lifts a paddle to say they've shut OK - at least on the route I take. CCTV screens allow the driver to get a view along the train anyway, and the platform attendant cross checks this.

Seems perfectly safe and workable to me, with the added advantage that there's someone on the platform to ask directions of if someone's a little lost.

When you have trains with automatic doors, I can't see the reason you'd need a guard on board - what have I missed?

dogbucket

1,200 posts

200 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Getting off a Southern train together with my kids and my friends with theirs, the driver shut the doors as we still getting off leaving my friends child seperated from them as the train sped off with them still on board. So would say a guard is very necessary if the driver is unable to look properly.

martin_b

Original Poster:

97 posts

179 months

Monday 4th July 2016
quotequote all
There is apparently an NCP car park

http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/morden_...

ashleyman said:
Your plan sounds fine but where will you park at Morden? There's not much there I don't think.


Edited by ashleyman on Monday 4th July 14:39

ashleyman

6,962 posts

98 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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martin_b said:
In all the years I've been taking the bus from my house in Cheam to Morden, I never knew this!!!!!!

CHorton

3 posts

92 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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dogbucket said:
Getting off a Southern train together with my kids and my friends with theirs, the driver shut the doors as we still getting off leaving my friends child seperated from them as the train sped off with them still on board. So would say a guard is very necessary if the driver is unable to look properly.
Which they are quite often. Drivers can't see inside the train, only a view outside. In a controlled environment it's perfectly fine to use monitors, in the real world it's a very different story. Rain, dirt, sunlight etc they genuinely all make things a lot lot harder, sometimes to the point where you can't safely dispatch. I think you'd be surprised how often it happens.

Greshamst

2,028 posts

119 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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CHorton said:
Which they are quite often. Drivers can't see inside the train, only a view outside. In a controlled environment it's perfectly fine to use monitors, in the real world it's a very different story. Rain, dirt, sunlight etc they genuinely all make things a lot lot harder, sometimes to the point where you can't safely dispatch. I think you'd be surprised how often it happens.
I would be surprised... If I hadn't been on a train delayed by 'adverse sun conditions' before.

It's not the drivers fault. It's the fault of the company that's not able to put a simple sun block on a monitor!

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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My sympathy during this dispute tends to be with the staff, although I positively dislike it when every union pronouncement talks about cuts to make profits for shareholders/foreign owners etc.

Those who say that Driver Only Operation has operated for a number of years are of course correct, however that doesn't mean it should continue, it also doesn't mean it is the best solution. There are a number of reasons why I believe a guard is required and 1 of those is dispatch as I believe they have a better opportunity of spotting issues before doors close. However they also have a role of safety on board. For example in the admittedly unlikely event there is an accident the driver is the most vulnerable person on that train Even if he is not injured he needs to protect the train, notify the authorities etc. The guard can take on the responsibility of checking the passengers, keeping them informed etc. The same applies in the event of a breakdown, the driver can concentrate on fixing the issue whilst the guard keeps the passengers informed.

There was a case recently where a driver sadly passed away at the controls of his train. Fortunately the train was in the suburbs of London just outside a station and there was a passing train that could investigate. On many routes on Southern this might not be the case, the train might be in a rural area, no mobile signal, no staff member to investigate why bit has stopped etc.

If you go to the cinema, theatre etc you will find more staff on duty than the snack seller. They are required to have ushers who are responsible for evacuating in the event of an emergency. The numbers of ushers required varies according to the number of people present. I dont know how often there is an incident in a cinema or theatre but it doesnt make sense to me that a train can carry up to 1,750 people with only one member of staff on board should it go wrong.

There have been a number of incidents where driver only trains have dragged passengers who got trapped in doors, recent cases include Hayes & Hillingdon, West Wickham, there was also a case where a driver only train got stuck near Kentish Town and the passengers took their own action and evacuated.

Now the problem is that these days once the guard shuts the doors he can no longer see the outside the train, so he'll only know if there is an issue if by chance he can see, or if someone on the platform can point them out. This is slightly better than the driver who has no chance of knowing.

So personally I would have the guard able to look at a window to ensure the train remains clear as it leaves a station, I would also oblige them to use their best endeavours to check tickets etc.


Ian Geary

4,462 posts

191 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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valiant said:
Mind you, if you rely on drivers/guards doing overtime to run a full timetable and then deny staff to do overtime so they can't claw back wages lost to strike action, is it any wonder trains are being cancelled?
That's what winds me up about this dispute. The local news / national press are quick to swallow the spin from GVT about "sickness".

But no-one is looking deep enough - the DfT's finger prints are all over these changes.

Still, DfT and their puppets GVT know that in the home counties, no-one is going to get upset over a few unionites belly aching, and they make an awfully convenient scape goat.


As for DOO, this article is interesting:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

In summary: they can work, but they can also not work.

What is really intersting I find (going off on a tangent here, so apologies) is the rail industy's attempts at performance management.

Page 30 sets out the steps taken to address this driver's poor driving, inclding a seemingly never ending Competence Development Plan (CDP) between 2011-2015.

And even when a Driving Standard Manager caught him out not following the CDP, the consequence was....extending the CDP a bit more.

The driving examiner even noted he thought the driver was only following the rules when being watched closley...but still, that was OK.

And, the guy had is CDP was signed off 2 days after this accident...because the train company weren't aware of it..?!? After another 2 days had passed, they decided enough was enough and suspensed him.


I'm no rail buff, but that seems very limp wristed to me. It's not like he's driving toy trains around.


If I was cynical, I would suspect the inspectors and managers are fearful of Union consequences of trying to deal with poor performance.



Ian


saaby93

32,038 posts

177 months

Monday 4th July 2016
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If they cant afford a guard on each train maybe they could have someone on the platform blow a whistle or wave a flag when all the doors are ok?

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Monday 4th July 2016
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
If they cant afford a guard on each train maybe they could have someone on the platform blow a whistle or wave a flag when all the doors are ok?
Well they allegedly are not saving money as the guards will have a new role called OBS, which will basically be selling full priced tickets to those that havent bought them before boarding. They will be apparently paid the same etc.

The cynics believe the OBS role wont be around long as as they leave will not be replaced.

To have a member of staff at each station would require a lot more staff than to have an additional one to the driver on each train.

saaby93

32,038 posts

177 months

Monday 4th July 2016
quotequote all
Chrisgr31 said:
To have a member of staff at each station would require a lot more staff than to have an additional one to the driver on each train.
yeah I was wondering if the guy could board the train after blowing the whistle and maybe check some tickets or sell a few sarnies

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Tuesday 5th July 2016
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Is driver only operation reasonably safe or not? If it is then redundancy for the guards, if it isn't then why is it occurring?