Given up with Southern Rail.
Discussion
SWTH said:
V8 Fettler said:
You're confusing "safe" with "reasonably safe".
As a railwayman I am acutely aware of safety. From my very first day this phrase was drummed into me:If it's not safe, don't do it.
There is no such thing as "reasonably safe" - either it's safe or it isn't. If you cannot (or, as I suspect will not) grasp that most basic railway operating principle, then further debate with you is pointless.
legzr1 said:
The TOC should have ensured that the RSSB had no adverse comment about DOO before implementing changes, more incompetent management. Does the TOC have an independent expert's report to support their stance on DOO?legzr1 said:
V8 Fettler said:
£30billion tax-take from road users each year, expenditure on roads: less than £10billion per annum. The £20billion per annum differential fixes most of our road transport issues.
You forgot around £20M for rooms to lock disagreeing sides into.Perhaps a graph could help you...
Or you could go find a thread discussing VED.
V8 Fettler said:
If I'm not using the passenger rail network then why should I have to pay for it?
Because, even though you're not using them, you still benefit from them.Because, even though you're not using them now, you may well need to use them one day. (It's called strategic planning).
Because,even though you may never ever use them, they're a vital,part of our national infrastructure and suggesting that people only pay for the stuff that they are currently using is a very blinkered approach.
What about all the goods delivered by freight?
What about the coal that keeps your lights on?
What about nuclear freight?
What about the poor old Queen?
What about a motorway network that would be completely congested if all rail traffic all moved to road?
Transport is a public need and should be subsided from the public purse.
Of course we are going away from that, so we also get folk moaning about how much season tickets cost.
What about the coal that keeps your lights on?
What about nuclear freight?
What about the poor old Queen?
What about a motorway network that would be completely congested if all rail traffic all moved to road?
Transport is a public need and should be subsided from the public purse.
Of course we are going away from that, so we also get folk moaning about how much season tickets cost.
SWTH said:
Having seen your attempts to prove your opinion to be correct despite experts thoroughly debunking your statements in other threads (the QE/carrier thread for example), I doubt anything that those of us employed in the rail industry say here will be taken on board or listened to.
We were warned.
SWTH said:
Train acquisition
Wow that seems hideously complex, why does the Dft have to stick is oar in on spec other than just a safety element? Surely that would be sensible, TOC wants new trains, gets specs, gets tenders, then gets the Dft to check off on tender & safety spec... ... or am I just being naive?
I dislike the 377/387/444 type trains, even when they were at the end of their lives the 411/421-423's were better than these.
On the "paying when not using" I would gladly pay for something that free's up the road abit. This (old) article says each freight train takes 60 lorries off the road, we run 2 trains per day just one company!
http://www.business-money.com/announcements/the-ad...
I just wanted to say thanks to all the folks who work in the industry and have replied to my moaning posts and contributed to this topic with real insight.
It's interesting to hear about the pains from the other side, and find out why the problems I experience as a customer have come about.
It's interesting to hear about the pains from the other side, and find out why the problems I experience as a customer have come about.
There aren't even sidings to put the new trains now! it's mental, and such a short-sighted approach.
Greshamst said:
I just wanted to say thanks to all the folks who work in the industry and have replied to my moaning posts and contributed to this topic with real insight.
It's interesting to hear about the pains from the other side, and find out why the problems I experience as a customer have come about.
I\m sure a lot of people will appreciate a nice post like that. Railwaymen and women don't often get thanks!It's interesting to hear about the pains from the other side, and find out why the problems I experience as a customer have come about.
V8 Fettler said:
No transport system is safe, all transport systems involve hazards, hence risk. "Reasonably safe" can be expanded to "as safe as reasonably practicable", which is the only occasion you'll see the use of the word "practicable".
I'm not prepared to repeatedly explain for you the definition of safe. Therefore, allow me to spell it out once and for all:1. The railway operates on the basis of safe/not safe. No in betweens, no extra definition required.
2. The Rule Book, Appendix to the Rule Book and several other publications cover the safe method of operation of the railway.
3. We, as railwaymen are very well aware that nothing is without risk. This is why we develop safe methods of working. Not 'safe as reasonably practicable methods of working'.
4. If I told a manager that what I was doing was 'reasonably safe', at the very least I would expect to be told to go away and think about what I was doing, if not expect retraining and observation of my working practices. For the final time, we work to a straight, no grey areas, yes or no answer of safe or not safe.
Knock the semantics on the head and accept that we DO know what we are talking about. If you have anything worthwhile to contribute, then do so. If not, stop posting utter b
ks.Good post.
I'm a big fan of safe working though have been amazed at the lengths some folk will go to to declare something unsafe to get a night off!
Safety used to be Number 1 priority for a certain Railway company, except it wasn't, money was. Then people died.
I'm a big fan of safe working though have been amazed at the lengths some folk will go to to declare something unsafe to get a night off!
Safety used to be Number 1 priority for a certain Railway company, except it wasn't, money was. Then people died.
Edited by Rick101 on Thursday 14th July 13:16
Every rule in the book has been formed over around a hundred years, each one of these rules has come about normally as the result of a hideous oversight and accident, the book is binary, and safe is binary on the railway, it is defined and understood by all railwayman. There is is no grey area, deviating around these rules will get you as the least disciplined at the work killed or jailed.
In my mind DOO is fundamentally unsafe, not as a practise but from the severe lack of infrastructure to do it. The mirror, cctv or physically looking back are all susceptible to human error and unexpected things happening.
Example, I'm running the 6:xx service to Paddington, I get to Burnham on where the doors are on the right(in itself a risk) and the sun is obscuring my vision and I can't see a thing in the DOO mirror, partly because its dirty(I've asked for it to be clean) partly because its in full shadow of the sun, now I have to get out of my seat, physically check, close the doors then return to my seat and pull away. Hopefully in the time it's taken for me to do this no one has run and tripped near the train, I check the mirror and it sort of looks clear to my eyes and I go, trains late now though.
That the issue with DOO.
In my mind DOO is fundamentally unsafe, not as a practise but from the severe lack of infrastructure to do it. The mirror, cctv or physically looking back are all susceptible to human error and unexpected things happening.
Example, I'm running the 6:xx service to Paddington, I get to Burnham on where the doors are on the right(in itself a risk) and the sun is obscuring my vision and I can't see a thing in the DOO mirror, partly because its dirty(I've asked for it to be clean) partly because its in full shadow of the sun, now I have to get out of my seat, physically check, close the doors then return to my seat and pull away. Hopefully in the time it's taken for me to do this no one has run and tripped near the train, I check the mirror and it sort of looks clear to my eyes and I go, trains late now though.
That the issue with DOO.
RemyMartin said:
Every rule in the book has been formed over around a hundred years, each one of these rules has come about normally as the result of a hideous oversight and accident, the book is binary, and safe is binary on the railway, it is defined and understood by all railwayman. There is is no grey area, deviating around these rules will get you as the least disciplined at the work killed or jailed.
In my mind DOO is fundamentally unsafe, not as a practise but from the severe lack of infrastructure to do it. The mirror, cctv or physically looking back are all susceptible to human error and unexpected things happening.
Example, I'm running the 6:xx service to Paddington, I get to Burnham on where the doors are on the right(in itself a risk) and the sun is obscuring my vision and I can't see a thing in the DOO mirror, partly because its dirty(I've asked for it to be clean) partly because its in full shadow of the sun, now I have to get out of my seat, physically check, close the doors then return to my seat and pull away. Hopefully in the time it's taken for me to do this no one has run and tripped near the train, I check the mirror and it sort of looks clear to my eyes and I go, trains late now though.
That the issue with DOO.
Whilst I don't disagree with what you are saying, the fact still remains that approximately 30% of passenger services are currently running DOO around the country.In my mind DOO is fundamentally unsafe, not as a practise but from the severe lack of infrastructure to do it. The mirror, cctv or physically looking back are all susceptible to human error and unexpected things happening.
Example, I'm running the 6:xx service to Paddington, I get to Burnham on where the doors are on the right(in itself a risk) and the sun is obscuring my vision and I can't see a thing in the DOO mirror, partly because its dirty(I've asked for it to be clean) partly because its in full shadow of the sun, now I have to get out of my seat, physically check, close the doors then return to my seat and pull away. Hopefully in the time it's taken for me to do this no one has run and tripped near the train, I check the mirror and it sort of looks clear to my eyes and I go, trains late now though.
That the issue with DOO.
However, another issue on DOO that has been aired at length in another group of which I am a member is skip-stopping, where trains booked to call at a given station do not do so despite the fact that the train in question is not running late (which should theoretically be the only reason for this practice, to return the train to its booked path).
It appears to have emerged on that forum that skip stopping is happening with DOO trains when the CCTV at a given station is out of service. Without the platform CCTV in operation the driver is unable to easily establish whether the doors are clear, so the train doesn't stop.
As I understand it, this is a particular problem at Hassocks, but am happy to be corrected by any staff working on that line who post here and know better.
rs1952 said:
Whilst I don't disagree with what you are saying, the fact still remains that approximately 30% of passenger services are currently running DOO around the country.
However, another issue on DOO that has been aired at length in another group of which I am a member is skip-stopping, where trains booked to call at a given station do not do so despite the fact that the train in question is not running late (which should theoretically be the only reason for this practice, to return the train to its booked path).
It appears to have emerged on that forum that skip stopping is happening with DOO trains when the CCTV at a given station is out of service. Without the platform CCTV in operation the driver is unable to easily establish whether the doors are clear, so the train doesn't stop.
As I understand it, this is a particular problem at Hassocks, but am happy to be corrected by any staff working on that line who post here and know better.
I live close to Hassocks, and it's a regular stop to and from London and Bedford. The train stops at Hassocks everytime it's meant to. I haven't used trains in 6 months, before that I used them regularly and I'm not aware any trains not stopping at Hassocks.However, another issue on DOO that has been aired at length in another group of which I am a member is skip-stopping, where trains booked to call at a given station do not do so despite the fact that the train in question is not running late (which should theoretically be the only reason for this practice, to return the train to its booked path).
It appears to have emerged on that forum that skip stopping is happening with DOO trains when the CCTV at a given station is out of service. Without the platform CCTV in operation the driver is unable to easily establish whether the doors are clear, so the train doesn't stop.
As I understand it, this is a particular problem at Hassocks, but am happy to be corrected by any staff working on that line who post here and know better.
14 said:
I live close to Hassocks, and it's a regular stop to and from London and Bedford. The train stops at Hassocks everytime it's meant to. I haven't used trains in 6 months, before that I used them regularly and I'm not aware any trains not stopping at Hassocks.
On another forum Peter Gibbons said:
I heartily agree Paul, but Southern would have you believe that is 'staff sickness' !!!
An interesting article appeared in The Guardian. I particularly liked the response by Southern with regard to skip-stopping of trains being 'rare'.
Southern added that while some trains do skip stops to make up time, it is rare and that “if this is done, there is nothing to gain performance measure-wise as a train that skips stops is declared as a PPM failure – even if it does reach its destination on time”.
Rare? It's only happened at Hassocks on 472 occasions since the 1st January this year to date - hardly rare!
An interesting article appeared in The Guardian. I particularly liked the response by Southern with regard to skip-stopping of trains being 'rare'.
Southern added that while some trains do skip stops to make up time, it is rare and that “if this is done, there is nothing to gain performance measure-wise as a train that skips stops is declared as a PPM failure – even if it does reach its destination on time”.
Rare? It's only happened at Hassocks on 472 occasions since the 1st January this year to date - hardly rare!
rs1952 said:
Whilst I don't disagree with what you are saying, the fact still remains that approximately 30% of passenger services are currently running DOO around the country.
The problem as I see it is that things have changed since DOO was initially introduced. There are significantly more people travelling on trains, those people also are in a greater hurry to get home, more impatient etc. In addition rail staff have been personally prosecuted for incidents.Combine this with longer trains which in itself might not be an issue, but when they have more doors it does start to be an issue.
I've suffered on Southern for the last year, but particularly the last 3 months or so. Salfords (Redhill) to London Bridge if anyone is interested.
Any way I wont go into detail on my experience of the cock ups and mindless futility of it all as it's mostly within this thread and I need to go to bed to experience the same joy tomorrow morning.
I wanted to say this week, since the "Emergency Timetable" came in all trains have largely been on time and it's been nice to see some of the summer evenings we so look forward to in this mostly dark of evening country of ours.....
but.....
the trains have been cut from 12 carriages to 8, no reason as to why, so while we get back mostly on time, the carriages resemble a crime against humanity.
Any way I wont go into detail on my experience of the cock ups and mindless futility of it all as it's mostly within this thread and I need to go to bed to experience the same joy tomorrow morning.
I wanted to say this week, since the "Emergency Timetable" came in all trains have largely been on time and it's been nice to see some of the summer evenings we so look forward to in this mostly dark of evening country of ours.....
but.....
the trains have been cut from 12 carriages to 8, no reason as to why, so while we get back mostly on time, the carriages resemble a crime against humanity.
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