Any employment experts able to give a bit of advice please?

[NickM450]

Hi folks,

I'm reaching out to the employment experts that may lurk on Pistonheads. My query is regarding general sickness, being paid and if my employer has followed the rules.

I realise this is a big ask and I may have to go see someone on a professional level but thought I'd try here first

Cheers

[rog007]

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay/overview

[NickM450]

I know abut SSP, I'm more interested if if my employer has followed the correct procedure etc.

There have been missed meetings, different stages of disciplinary action which have not been adhered to and such things.

[Foliage]

If they aren't following the agreed processor outlined in the staff hand book put in a grievance with a more senior member of the HR team.

Simply saying youd like them to follow the agreed process.

[edc]

As along as a fair and reasonable process has been followed, including anything that may be contractual or referred to in a handbook, then a Tribunal will rarely question the outcome. Who is missing the meetings? Why are they being missed? Are they being rescheduled? Are they being held in absence after attempts to reschedule? Are the actions or targets being proposed or agreed being reviewed or met? Is there any policy guidance on measuring the sickness absence?

[NickM450]

In the shortest way possible, this is where I am at the moment.

June, had ulcerated eye, this resulted in around 3 weeks off. All signed off by doctor, hospital visits etc. I am a HGV driver so being able to see is kinda important. After that sickness I had a back to work meeting and was later invited to what my company calls a 'stage one' interview/disciplinary. That meeting never happened and was not rescheduled and all was forgot about. That meeting was to officially discuss the next steps and what would happen if I was I'll again etc.

Fast forward to earlier this month and I was knocked for six by Tonsillitis which unfortunately has also made the ulcers reappearing my eye so yet again I'm off ill. Doctors and hospital appointments and properly signed off, all done properly. It's looking like another 3 weeks and I'm pretty certain I will be invited to a 'stage 2' interview/disciplinary. What I am more concerned about is possible dismissal and to a lesser extent not being paid.

In our T&C's it says it's at managers discretion at Level 2 but I never officially had the Level 1 interview so can I go directly to that higher stage?

[eybic]

In my unqualified mind, you haven't had a stage 1 interview so a stage 2 interview certainly shouldn't happen.

[edc]

NickM450 said:

In the shortest way possible, this is where I am at the moment.

June, had ulcerated eye, this resulted in around 3 weeks off. All signed off by doctor, hospital visits etc. I am a HGV driver so being able to see is kinda important. After that sickness I had a back to work meeting and was later invited to what my company calls a 'stage one' interview/disciplinary. That meeting never happened and was not rescheduled and all was forgot about. That meeting was to officially discuss the next steps and what would happen if I was I'll again etc.

Fast forward to earlier this month and I was knocked for six by Tonsillitis which unfortunately has also made the ulcers reappearing my eye so yet again I'm off ill. Doctors and hospital appointments and properly signed off, all done properly. It's looking like another 3 weeks and I'm pretty certain I will be invited to a 'stage 2' interview/disciplinary. What I am more concerned about is possible dismissal and to a lesser extent not being paid.

In our T&C's it says it's at managers discretion at Level 2 but I never officially had the Level 1 interview so can I go directly to that higher stage?

You will need to check your own handbook and/or contract for your eligibility for any company sick pay. As long as you follow the absence reporting procedures and submit the correct paperwork to the specified functions as per your own internal policies and are eligible for SSP then you should be paid via the payroll as normal.

I would wait to see if there is any meeting in the off'ing before jumping to any conclusions and stand your ground for a 'stage 1' as you have not had any formal meeting as yet. Look at the sickness policy or provisions to see how this affects you. What is the measurement basis for sickness? Rolling 12 months or calender year for example. Do they count total number of days or is there a points system based on periods of sick and number of days? What is your length of service, as this will determine your eligibility to claim unfair dismissal and may allow the business to short-cut any process and dismiss you if they so wish.

[NickM450]

I'm not planning to go back to work all guns blazing, I will indeed wait to see what happens.

I've been with the company 8.5 years and the sickness policy was changed at the beginning of this year. It used to be that you are paid for the first 2 sicknesses in a rolling 12 months but not the third. The new policy is a percentage based system, any more than 3% in a rolling 12 sets of certain triggers. My first absences was 5. something percent and this one will be similar, I'm fairly certain they can't dismiss me as I have to e everything properly but I am rather vexed that I won't get paid, it's not like I'm having them on. Hence why I was asking about them not following procedure, they are somewhat of a joke when it comes to doing things properly and this is a perfect example of their incompetence.

Edited by NickM450 on Thursday 1st September 13:02

[edc]

There is no obligation, unless contractual, to pay anything other than SSP.

[NickM450]

I am aware of that, our policy does say that in Stage 1 then it would be paid.

Am I within my rights to wait for the formal interview that never happened, can they jump stages? Would that be a legal thing or can companies have their own policies on such things?

[edc]

NickM450 said:

I am aware of that, our policy does say that in Stage 1 then it would be paid.

Am I within my rights to wait for the formal interview that never happened, can they jump stages? Would that be a legal thing or can companies have their own policies on such things?

At the moment, is it right to say that you are speculating that you won't be paid? Have you been paid to date correctly as far as you know?

In terms of process, it very much depends on the nature of the issue at hand and the wording of the policy and how it may have been applied as to whether you can 'skip' stages.

If I were you I would clear your head. When it comes to it deal with the issue as it arises. If you 'skip' to stage 2 unexpectedly, voice your concerns and explain concisely why you think that this is procedurally incorrect. Follow up in writing. This may take the form of an appeal or it may be dealt with before the actual meeting itself when you receive the 'invitation' letter or notice. If you flag it then they may adjust their process.

[NickM450]

Indeed, it is all speculation on my part, I do however want to be fully prepared for when I do return to work. They do have a habit of springing meetings or chats in the locker room on us at any given time and I want to be clear in my head what I am going to do once that happens.

Thank you for your advice, it is very much appreciated

[4x4Tyke]

Don't worry; a employee handbook or contract cannot trump the law and you cannot be sacked for illness and by providing sick notes have followed the conventional process. The proper purpose of a back to work interview is not disciplinary it is to identify any possible reasonable adjustment necessary to assist the return to work or identify any work related causes of illness. When they don't follow their own processes they are on a hiding to nothing.

[paulrockliffe]

4x4Tyke said:

Don't worry; a employee handbook or contract cannot trump the law and you cannot be sacked for illness and by providing sick notes have followed the conventional process.

It would be difficult/unlikely in this case, but you can be dismissed where an illness makes it impossible for you to do your job and there's no likelihood of that changing in a reasonable time frame. Otherwise you'd have people having tragic accidents etc and continuing to be employed forever afterwards.

On the other points raised, the employer could skip straight to stage 2 regardless of the missed meeting because the meetings aren't statutory and they can do what they like. Whether it's defendable at a tribunal is less clear, but they could argue that having the meeting or not wouldn't influence the outcome of the process, so the missed meeting hasn't prejudiced the outcome of the process.

Whether that washes depends on whether there was anything material to discuss at the meeting. If it was just, "I was ill, here's the certificate, now it's fixed and it should be dealt with.", "OK, don't do it again." type of meeting then it's probably a valid defense. If there was something to discuss that would have meant you wouldn't have been fired later then it's likely to fail.

[edc]

4x4Tyke said:

Don't worry; a employee handbook or contract cannot trump the law and you cannot be sacked for illness and by providing sick notes have followed the conventional process. The proper purpose of a back to work interview is not disciplinary it is to identify any possible reasonable adjustment necessary to assist the return to work or identify any work related causes of illness. When they don't follow their own processes they are on a hiding to nothing.

You can be sacked for sickness, although it seems unlikely on the case presented.

[PorkInsider]

edc said:

4x4Tyke said:

Don't worry; a employee handbook or contract cannot trump the law and you cannot be sacked for illness and by providing sick notes have followed the conventional process. The proper purpose of a back to work interview is not disciplinary it is to identify any possible reasonable adjustment necessary to assist the return to work or identify any work related causes of illness. When they don't follow their own processes they are on a hiding to nothing.

You can be sacked for sickness, although it seems unlikely on the case presented.

Absolutely this!

Sounds unlikely in your scenario but do not listen to clueless people telling you that you can't be sacked for being sick.

You can be, regardless of sick notes, etc.

[Jasandjules]

Do you want to send me a PM and I can take a look in a little more detail