ZG875 - The Last Sea King

[ChemicalChaos]

Following my post on the "frivolous purchases thread" (though I havent actually purchased it for a couple of reasons, and it certainly isnt frivolous to me!), here is a thread on the Sea King cockpit I am now part of a joint project to restore!

Completed in 1990, ZG875 was the last Sea King airframe built by Westland - which as Sikorsky ceased production a few years earlier, makes it the last Sea King ever made. It was one of 5 new-build airframes to HAS.6 specification - HAS being the anti-submarine warfare version - with 20 other older airframes being converted. In typical MOD style, 5 of these were later deemed to be surplus and converted into utility models........
It entered service with 820 Squadron RNAS, and was based on various carriers as well as on dry land for a bit.

Here's a picture of 875 taxying in 1992, location unknown:




In 1999 however, it was written off in a landing accident at sea - the report for which states:

"Landed for refuelling on the Spanish Navy frigate ‘Reina Sofia’ during exercise ‘JMC 99/2’. With the engines still running the ship altered course. The Sea Kings heading correction system detected the change and while tethered to the deck the aircraft attempted to turn. This caused severe twisting and buckling of the airframe particularly along the tail section. The four crew escaped unhurt and the ship put into Faslane to offload the aircraft. It was transported by road the Flight Safety and Accident Investigation Unit at Yeovilton arriving there on 17th June. Damage was initially assessed as CAT 4 but with the surplus of Sea Kings in the Navy due to the delivery of Merlins it was deemed to be damaged beyond economical repair and was delivered to the Navy training school at HMS Sultan, Gosport during November 2000 as A2629"

What the report doesnt mention is that it actually ended up falling over onto its side, breaking the rotor blades and showering everyone on deck in carbon fibre splinters. I'm reliably informed that everyone was ordered to strip off there and then on deck to be hosed clean of the carbon debris.....

Anyway, 875 spent 13 years languishing in various hangars at HMS Sultan, looking very sorry for itself. Note the "crutch", as the original U/C leg was destroyed in the accident:




In 2013 the airframe was finally scrapped along with a few other damaged Sea Kings, however someone involved in the cockpit scene was allowed to cut 2 or 3 cockpit sections to save for enthusiasts. Having apparently done 2 of them not particularly well, a friend of mine and prolific cockpit collector and restorer got involved. He said he'd have 875's cockpit, IF it was cut properly. And so, this one was cut properly (for example, not through the middle of the crew door) and duly saved. The others were later scrapped, which makes 875 the only Sea King cockpit currently on the historic scene.

Here it is as it was picked up by said collector friend in 2014. Note the gouges on the offside caused by blade debris during the accident:







This is also currently how it stands 2 years later, awaiting its turn to be worked on. As you can see, whilst the outside is pretty complete and just needs sprucing up (the side windows, "barn door" intake cover and the engine intakes are present but not fitted), the inside is a bit barren. It'll be a long and expensive job to track down all of the instrumentation - so in the meantime I plan to cut lots of little plywood squares, paint them black and stick vinyl graphics of the instruments on them so the cockpit superficially looks complete. As I find each gauge, it can replace the false cover.
I've got someone in mind to make up the instrument faces in vinyl, the issue is finding a photograph or diagram to work from. My current plan is to visit one of the 3 museums in the UK that have a HAS.6, and ask very nicely if I can get in and photgraph every inch of the cockpit.

In the meantime, it also needs a proper display frame building for it to sit on and be moved around with casters. The first job will be to work out where the possible attachment points can go - we are thinking of supporting it on struts rather than sitting it on a saddle, due to the rather awkward shape of the underside.

However, there probably wont be any work commencing for a few months yet. Workshop space is at a severe premium - and once the current incumbent, Aggie Paggie the Anson (another aircraft cockpit with a rich history, but that's for another thread) disappears to its new home at Avro Heritage, several aero engine projects need a quick turnaround first. Anyway, look out for future updates!

Edited by ChemicalChaos on Monday 17th October 01:19

[Eric Mc]

Some project. Best of luck with it.

I'll stick to my 1/72 Airfix version.

[V41LEY]

Good luck with the project especially sourcing all the instruments.
Your photo shows an SK with 14 on the side but the cockpit has 13 ?

[ecsrobin]

That looks like a lot of work but hopefully you'll make some good progress.

I've never really understood the cockpit scene as I can just go and see a full airframe at a museum, but I understand it's a huge scene I'm sure there's a museum that even has a cockpit meetup.

[Eric Mc]

I'm sure it's to do with the ability of an individual to own and store a cockpit whereas a full aeroplane, even a fairly small one, is difficult to find room for or to transport around to exhibitions.

[ChemicalChaos]

Thanks chaps!

ecsrobin said:

That looks like a lot of work but hopefully you'll make some good progress.

I've never really understood the cockpit scene as I can just go and see a full airframe at a museum, but I understand it's a huge scene I'm sure there's a museum that even has a cockpit meetup.

As Eric says, its the storage aspect - and the fact that the cockpit is one of the most interesting parts of a plane anyway makes it doubly convenient.
You're thinking of cockpitfest at Newark Air Museum - my collector friend is a longstanding participant in this, both with the Anson and with his Phantom (XV490, which lives at Newark all year).

V41LEY said:

Good luck with the project especially sourcing all the instruments.
Your photo shows an SK with 14 on the side but the cockpit has 13 ?

I noticed this as well, but it is definitely the same tail number in both instances. I presume the squadron fleet must have had a repaint and re-shuffle at some point between 1992 and 1999

[MarkwG]

Not meant with disrespect, because you're conserving aviation history, that's a great thing, & I get all the issues around space, but a small part of me feels like when I see a stuffed animal above a mantelpiece? Just a little bit sad that such great machines have been beheaded.

[Eric Mc]

The alternative is nothing preserved at all. The vast bulk of these cockpits have been rescued from aircraft that were actually in the process of being scrapped.

More power to these dedicated enthusiasts I say.

[AstonZagato]

Do you sit inside, pretending to fly it, whilst making "dacker, dacker, dacker" noises for machine guns? I know I would.

[Eric Mc]

Not is Sea King, I'd guess.

But in a Hunter, on the other hand......

[FourWheelDrift]

I'd still prefer a complete one - http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/,95,/77744...

[freddytin]

You could always install a nightsun and blind / melt the feckers

[ChemicalChaos]

Eric Mc said:

MarkwG said:

Not meant with disrespect, because you're conserving aviation history, that's a great thing, & I get all the issues around space, but a small part of me feels like when I see a stuffed animal above a mantelpiece? Just a little bit sad that such great machines have been beheaded.

The alternative is nothing preserved at all. The vast bulk of these cockpits have been rescued from aircraft that were actually in the process of being scrapped.

More power to these dedicated enthusiasts I say.

This, really. I know of very few cockpits that were cut from good aircraft, the vasty majority are saved in the nick of time by enthusiasts who hear on the grapevine that a particular aircraft is about to be cut up for scrap. ZG875 was a crashed airframe of no use to anyone. The Anson, G-AGPG, was so riddled with corrosion that only the cockpit was saveable by the time preservationists got their hands on it. G-ORAL, the 748 that lives at Speke Aerodrome, was scrapped along with the whole Emerald 748 fleet (apart from BEJD which was saved whole by a mammoth effort from the Speke guys) at the behest of the liquidators. XV490 and the rest of the RAF Phantoms were good aircraft but legally had to be scrapped due to MOD secrecy bullst - as it is, the cockpit had to be prety much snuck out when no-one was looking.
We unfortunately cannot save every historic aircraft, but saving at least the cockpit section is a pretty good compromise!

[joshleb]

So what happens with it then when it's all done up? Just used for displays and exhibits?

No chance to connect the controls of some sort of helicopter sim and get a projector on top of the heli to project in front of the screen? Or is that just immature?

[ChemicalChaos]

joshleb said:

So what happens with it then when it's all done up? Just used for displays and exhibits?

No chance to connect the controls of some sort of helicopter sim and get a projector on top of the heli to project in front of the screen? Or is that just immature?

The option always exists to Sim an empty cockpit, and no it's not immature at all! The Jestream 41 G-JMAC that lives at Speke was delivered with an empty cockpit, and the decision was taken to sim it as a revenue earner for the resotration group rather than spend a fortune repopulating the cockpit properly. I also know of a Tornado cockpit that has had similar treatment - it's quite easy too, as screens can be places behind the instrument panels to display a virtual version of the instruments and their readouts in real time.
Whilst it certainly would be interesting to do the same wit the Sea King, as old fashioned blokes we'd prefer it simply as a 100% correct static exhibit, which can tour the shows. When we take the 748 and the Phantom to air shows, both hardcore enthusists and kids alike love the chance to sit in a true-to-life cockpit and ask what everything does - this is the plan for 875 when the inside is eventually completed. In the meantime, once externally finished, it can join the Anson (which is too fragile to handle guests) as a static exhibit at more local vintage shows.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

ChemicalChaos said:

XV490 and the rest of the RAF Phantoms were good aircraft but legally had to be scrapped due to MOD secrecy bullst

Keeping an F4 past its OOS date or not is nothing to do with "MOD bullst" and everything to do with the original purchase agreement with the USA.

WRT XV409 despite claims to the contrary, it had rotted through.

[ChemicalChaos]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

ChemicalChaos said:

XV490 and the rest of the RAF Phantoms were good aircraft but legally had to be scrapped due to MOD secrecy bullst

Keeping an F4 past its OOS date or not is nothing to do with "MOD bullst" and everything to do with the original purchase agreement with the USA.

WRT XV409 despite claims to the contrary, it had rotted through.

What I'd meant, but tried to abbreviate, was the whole agreement of the MOD with the US - and the fact that the US wouldnt let us release any of them into the wild as museum pieces or sell them on to other air forces.
I gather that, like the F-14 recently acquired by the CAF that they cannot get parts for, it's to do with not wanting Iran to get their hands on serviceable spares.

Anyway, returning to the Sea King - to answer an earlier question, you could indeed spend £120k on a complete airframe, but they too will be bereft of any avionics inside and also missing their engines. You'd essentially be spending 25 times the current value of ZG875 on a very large ornament that needs the same amount of work (which is why everyone in the know thinks the quoted dispersal price is bonkers, and that they will eventually end up being scrapped or donated to museums once they've sat there about 10 years corroding away)

[yellowjack]

A whole lot of good aircraft, fixed wing and rotary, as well as combat vehicles, were all subject to CFE treaty limitations.

I was involved at unit level in providing access to the former Soviet Bloc inspectors who came round barracks (and air bases too, I imagine) with access rights to any door over a certain size. Chieftain tanks were taken to be used as gunnery range targets, but even then they had to be cut in specific places to render them unrepairable.

The same was certainly true of Lynx helicopters in AAC service or war reserve storage. I can't swear to it, but I was pretty sure Phantoms were also subject to the treaty limitations. I think they were due to go OOS with the RAF around the time of the treaty, but because the Germans, Turks, and Greeks, among others, were still using them in front line roles, any complete airframes had to be counted as 'combat aircraft', hence why so few were saved in museums.

I'll bow to anyone demonstrating superior knowledge, but that was my take on it from reading documents and being involved with briefings in preparation for visits by the likes of Ukrainian and Russian officers who were as likely to be engaged in espionage as they were checking that empty sheds were indeed empty. Ahhh! The good old days of the post Cold War two-step with our erstwhile enemies!

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheet/cfe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Convention...

[ecsrobin]

yellowjack said:

A whole lot of good aircraft, fixed wing and rotary, as well as combat vehicles, were all subject to CFE treaty limitations.

I was involved at unit level in providing access to the former Soviet Bloc inspectors who came round barracks (and air bases too, I imagine) with access rights to any door over a certain size. Chieftain tanks were taken to be used as gunnery range targets, but even then they had to be cut in specific places to render them unrepairable.

The same was certainly true of Lynx helicopters in AAC service or war reserve storage. I can't swear to it, but I was pretty sure Phantoms were also subject to the treaty limitations. I think they were due to go OOS with the RAF around the time of the treaty, but because the Germans, Turks, and Greeks, among others, were still using them in front line roles, any complete airframes had to be counted as 'combat aircraft', hence why so few were saved in museums.

I'll bow to anyone demonstrating superior knowledge, but that was my take on it from reading documents and being involved with briefings in preparation for visits by the likes of Ukrainian and Russian officers who were as likely to be engaged in espionage as they were checking that empty sheds were indeed empty. Ahhh! The good old days of the post Cold War two-step with our erstwhile enemies!

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheet/cfe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Convention...

Wasn't it any door that was large enough to fit a tank in? Certainly the doors on RAF camps had yellow circles painted on to denote what doors could be inspected.

[yellowjack]

ecsrobin said:

Wasn't it any door that was large enough to fit a tank in? Certainly the doors on RAF camps had yellow circles painted on to denote what doors could be inspected.

It's well into the dim and distant past for me, but I seem to recall that any door over 4 metres wide might have been the limit that was set. Although Chieftain was about 3.5 metres wide. There were other dimensions too, such as depth of the building. Certainly when we were told that an inspection team was on it's way a hurried survey was carried out on all large access doors on camp,and as you say, they were marked so as 'they' knew which ones they were allowed to have opened. It was a bit of a game, really. A good deal of our kit that wasn't subject to treaty limitations was hidden away, simply so that the Ukrainians didn't get to see how broken and unreliable it all was.

The Chieftains we prepped at Castlemartin had to be cut in certain places. I think they were taken out of war reserves, and some of the Challengers were placed into storage to comply with treaty limits.

1. A longitudinal cut in the top of the main gun, just where it comes out of the mantlet.
2. The breach door fittings destroyed, and the breach door itself removed and scrapped separately.
3. A cut made through the turret ring and bearing race, rendering the traverse mechanism unusable.
4. Main gun elevation gearing destroyed.
5. A cutting charge placed along the edges of one of the suspension stations, such that it cut a hole in the side of the hull, affecting structural integrity.

All the charges to be set in the same place on each tank so as to make it harder to restore any one tank to use by substitution or swapping of parts. I used to have a series of photographs I took of the various stages of the demolition, but I haven't seen them following several house moves. We considered ourselves lucky to have got the job really. A week (or two for some of us) down at sunny Castlemartin, and a (relatively) complex series of metal cutting charges to prepare and a seemingly plentiful supply of PE4 and proprietary cutting charges to do it all with.

Sorry to derail the Sea King thread with this guff. I'm sure the treaty didn't deal with transport/utility helicopters at all, just "attack helicopters" like some of the Lynx fleet. I know the RN weren't affected in terms of the fleet itself.