How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
craigjm said:
Tough decision to make and the worst time of year for it. If you don't like the change in conditions it is probably best for you to take it but sometimes putting food on the table comes ahead of your own views on things. Always take into account how long it might take to get another job of equal pay and whether the package on offer will cover that. It is also, more often than not, easier to get a new job when you have a job already in many cases which is wrong in my opinion but the statistics bear it out. Whatever you decide, good luck.
Thanks.If I decide to go, will not be going till end of June.
If the company can get all the required training for the remaining drivers in time.
With the amount of severance and pension (plus the extra pension I've been paying into since 1986, BRASS2) and my own ISAs, I don't need to work again.
BUT, been doing this since I was 19, don't know anything but driving trains.
Not really sure how I'll put my time in.
Nik da Greek said:
Jeez, zero hours contracts? Don't even go there. My ears are still ringing from the meltdown in the Locomotive Journal over that one...
I thought those kind of contracts had really been discredited after Sports Direct and all the issues they caused. Zero hours contracts are in reality zero jobs.tight5 said:
Thanks, but I'm not ready to go, if only we could have another 5 years doing what we are doing now.
Might even have been able to get a Porsche like my buddy.
Yeah, yeah - and what would you do with a Porsche? Might even have been able to get a Porsche like my buddy.
Best of luck with your decision - I've been through it a couple of times and landed on my feet (although it doesn't seem like it at times).
VTEC offering interviews for vacancies to all DBC qualified drivers under threat but the timescale is very tight - interviews in York next week.
Get it done!
craigjm said:
OK so we hear this about renationalisation over and over again.
Was the service, clean, reliable, effective, efficient, well run, reasonably cost effective when it was a nationalised service? What makes people think that simply bringing it back into public ownership will protect it from under investment and all of the other issues that it currently suffers?
There are no guarantees but it's worth remembering a few things.Was the service, clean, reliable, effective, efficient, well run, reasonably cost effective when it was a nationalised service? What makes people think that simply bringing it back into public ownership will protect it from under investment and all of the other issues that it currently suffers?
Firstly, the railways were originally nationalised after they were starved of cash and left derelict by private companies with vested interests (perhaps if the Tories get their wish we may see history repeat itself).
Then, for decades the nationalised railway was systematically starved of funds, investment and intelligent management - some would argue this was deliberate to make privatisation something to cheer about.
The public cash being ploughed into the franchising system is astronomical and an order of magnitude over and above what BR ever received even accounting for inflation - now, imagine a connected, properly managed national rail system receiving sufficient funding and planning (lets say 80% of what is being spent now) and take into account what was mentioned by Tight5 re: East Coast - the private franchise holder bid an amount that was never going to be paid to win the franchise, made its profit in the earlier years then ran leaving a Governement led management team to sort out the mess.
And that they did, returning the service to punctuality and profit.
Perhaps that was the exception that would prove the rule?
And what's on the horizon?
The DFT being pushed by Ministers into breaking up NR to be run by a mismatch of 'for profit' private companies.
Yes, that would work - it wasn't too bad under RailTrack ........ until £ became > safety yet again and lives were lost.
I have no crystal ball but isn't the past the best prediction of the future?
I don't think either nationalisation or privatisation works when it comes to trains to be honest. There must be some way that you can build a system that takes advantage of the best bits of both maybe. It's hard to look at other systems around the world and say "that would work" because the circumstances and historical legacy of the kit you have to play with is different in each setting.
Personally I think it's a nut that is never going to be cracked and we are just going to sleepwalk into driver only everywhere and then probably ten years after that into automation but I still don't see how either of those benefit passengers and create a service that people would want to use not just because they have to
Personally I think it's a nut that is never going to be cracked and we are just going to sleepwalk into driver only everywhere and then probably ten years after that into automation but I still don't see how either of those benefit passengers and create a service that people would want to use not just because they have to
phatmanace said:
question on this: I read a couple of articles about it this morning - am I reading correctly that 'normal' service only works with people doing overtime, and that even with no strike, if staff work to only core contracted hours that the service is effectively crippled? - or did I misread/misunderstand?
AIUI it's an historic working arrangement whereby TOCs can only offer 6 day working contracts but are obligated to provide a 7 day service so they rely on overtime to meet their service obligations. Similar to Royal Mail (anyone spot a common denominator?) which can only offer 5 day contracts to posties but has to deliver mail 6 days a week so relies on posties doing overtime.
48k said:
AIUI it's an historic working arrangement whereby TOCs can only offer 6 day working contracts but are obligated to provide a 7 day service so they rely on overtime to meet their service obligations. Similar to Royal Mail (anyone spot a common denominator?) which can only offer 5 day contracts to posties but has to deliver mail 6 days a week so relies on posties doing overtime.
Some TOCs have a seven day roster with Sunday's included, some don't and some have 'obligated' Sunday's whereby you're virtually forced to work 'voluntary' Sunday shift if you can't find someone to cover.
Some TOCs even have different arrangements and agreements depending on which side of the Pennines you're based at.
That's the fragmented railway for you.
I haven't a clue how RM run their service - I don't work for them so refuse to comment on their working arrangements on a national forum
To be fair, almost all are running 'ok' and it only seems to be SR with real core issues.
Naturally there is the odd issue and staff grumbles at most places (I know VTEC drivers who aren't keen on the style of operation and really miss East Coast with similar comments coming from the west side too.)
The DB take-over of Northern (I think they're by far the biggest operator in terms of drivers and guards with very little DOO operation) seems to have happened smoothly although the less I say about DB the better...
TPE are about to expand and have just renewed the franchise - drivers and guards there were a little fed up with the way things were going but morale seems to be on the up.
I'm no expert on these things but we drivers get around a fair bit and listen to the moaning - most of it has merit , all of it makes you feel better
Naturally there is the odd issue and staff grumbles at most places (I know VTEC drivers who aren't keen on the style of operation and really miss East Coast with similar comments coming from the west side too.)
The DB take-over of Northern (I think they're by far the biggest operator in terms of drivers and guards with very little DOO operation) seems to have happened smoothly although the less I say about DB the better...
TPE are about to expand and have just renewed the franchise - drivers and guards there were a little fed up with the way things were going but morale seems to be on the up.
I'm no expert on these things but we drivers get around a fair bit and listen to the moaning - most of it has merit , all of it makes you feel better
legzr1 said:
Fair comment although your '10 years for automation' won't happen.
Low speed new build systems, yes - the whole infrastructure, not a cat in hells chance.
I'm interested by this response. It is hard to see why the technology developed for cars (a much more complex set of issues) could not be easily applied to trains? Low speed new build systems, yes - the whole infrastructure, not a cat in hells chance.
You don't change the trackside infrastructure, in the same way automated cars don't require the replacement of traffic lights, you just change the train tech.
loafer123 said:
I'm interested by this response. It is hard to see why the technology developed for cars (a much more complex set of issues) could not be easily applied to trains?
You don't change the trackside infrastructure, in the same way automated cars don't require the replacement of traffic lights, you just change the train tech.
Automatic running is scheduled to be introduced as part of the Thameslink Programme through central London. Although given that the programme was originally called "Thameslink 2000" it gives you some idea of how far behind the original idea it already is. Given that the new Thameslink trains that are designed to achieve this self-driving miracle are currently falling flat on their arse on a day to day basis and can't even cope with the easy stuff like just annpuncing stopping patterns and releasing the doors, maybe the cat in hell's assessment doesn't seem too pessimisstic.You don't change the trackside infrastructure, in the same way automated cars don't require the replacement of traffic lights, you just change the train tech.
I suspect many eyes will be watching how fatal all this proves for the Thameslink guinea pig before they think of applying it elsewhere
Funny this auto drive stuff.
My, almost, brother in law is doing some NR auto drive computer shizz for London Bridge station. He takes great delight in telling me how crap drivers are, how his computer system is gonna take over the driving into and out of the new station.
I ask, what happens when your computer goes down ?
Erm, the driver takes over ?
My, almost, brother in law is doing some NR auto drive computer shizz for London Bridge station. He takes great delight in telling me how crap drivers are, how his computer system is gonna take over the driving into and out of the new station.
I ask, what happens when your computer goes down ?
Erm, the driver takes over ?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Jubilee line cost over £600m and took around 4 years to convert to ATO.Northern line was similar. Both lines converted existing trains.
4LM project (met,circle, H&C,district) is projected to cost around £5.5 billion to convert to ATO (includes new trains) and not projected to complete until 2022 at the very earliest.
Now extrapolate those costs across the entire national railway which is in orders of magnitude more complicated and you'll have a reason why things are not done quickly. One day perhaps, but we'll all be long in our graves before it's seen as commonplace.
legzr1 said:
Firstly, the railways were originally nationalised after they were starved of cash and left derelict by private companies with vested interests (perhaps if the Tories get their wish we may see history repeat itself).
The railways were originally nationalized in 1914 for WW1. During WW2 the railways were not nationalised but were left massively run down after 6 years of total war until the Government stepped in with the 1947 Transportation Act. Vested interests? really?Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff