How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

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Discussion

schmunk

4,399 posts

124 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
legzr1 said:
Robertj21a said:
But all of the London Overground network has been DOO for years. Thameslink's 12-coach trains use the same track and stations as Southern - and have also been DOO for years.
Perhaps it's time to get rid of DOO altogether then?
Errr.........why?

confused

schmunk

4,399 posts

124 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:

https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.


loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:

https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.
Absolutely.

Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.

Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.

KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?

They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
KTF said:
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?

They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
Because they agreed with it then (probably a financial sweetener at the time). Now it suits them to not agree with it !

tight5

2,747 posts

158 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
Dogwatch said:
Don't know about Chiltern but apparently the Scotrail agreement is that now the driver opens the doors and the guard closes them! Hardly a giant leap into the 21st century.

New stock was built as DOO but has had to have guards stations retrofitted at a cost of £5m - to the taxpayer. Cost effective? Hmmm.
The new stock is just being built now.
One of the drivers at my depot took the first partially finished CL385 from Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe to Mossend. Going up there for trials then back for completion.

tight5

2,747 posts

158 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
67s, while we've still got them (2 up for sale rolleyes).

craigjm

17,907 posts

199 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
KTF said:
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?

They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
Because they agreed with it then (probably a financial sweetener at the time). Now it suits them to not agree with it !
The franchise they are dealing with is entirely different and they are taking the piss for that very reason. Southern is the only franchise where the operator gets a fixed fee for operating the service and any profits go back to the government. The unions know this and so do the southern leaders obviously. It is therefore not in their interests to run trains as they get paid regardless and the unions can hold out for anything they want as its not the rail operator who is taking the burden of the hardship.

Sump

5,484 posts

166 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
legzr1 said:
Sump said:
Heavily invest in making their jobs redundant.
Ho, ho,ho.

Another 'automation is the answer' jockey.

Come on then, give us the details, timeline, budget etc.
That is something that needs to be discussed, why would I give you them?

Firms are realising the real cost of employees and that is why we are seeing more and more businesses investing into technology...just look at self serve checkouts.

Have a gander here : https://youtu.be/CqE89V29WjQ

It's going to happen whether they like it or not.

GrahamG

1,091 posts

266 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
Sorry but the cynic in me sniffs a politically motivated RMT seeing an opportunity to 'take down' a Train Operating Company under the veil of safety - They retain a policy of seeking denationalisation and the failure of a major Souther England TOC would potentially be a substantial step on that road.

They have - correctly - spotted a combination of a woeful track record, weak management and a vulnerable operating system and frankly have exploited it.

I have zero doubt that there are a large number of people directly involved that have genuine concerns over safety - and over job security - but the general lack of willingness to really engage here has a very familiar whiff around it.

craigjm

17,907 posts

199 months

Tuesday 13th December 2016
quotequote all
I think its time a lot of london based companies started to look closely at their operating models and move towards more remote and home working and away from costly central based office space. If passenger numbers started to plummet then a solution might be found. I reckon if you looked closely at the jobs people were doing travelling on each train each day the majority of them could be done without the travel and the grind into London every day is just resistance to change by big companies. Ironically, exactly what is being shown by the employees of southern and the unions. All this kind of thing will ever achieve is a desire to march even faster to automation. Strikes like this will do for the train industry what they did for the car industry eventually.

Cold

Original Poster:

15,207 posts

89 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
Interestingly (or not depending on your point of view) the BBC are running an editorial this evening based around the question in my OP.

BBC link

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:

https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.
Absolutely.

Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.

Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.
You sure? Every one of the RAIB reports involved as a minimum injuries to a person who was boarding or leaving a train and was caught in the doors as they closed. In most cases where that train was driver only operation the driver should have seen the person in the CCTV but didnt for whatever reason.

The arguments around DOO are complex, but I think the biggest concern is the one that drivers dont see what is there to be seen in the the CCTV. I actually thin this is the same reason cyclists get knocked off. Drivers see what they want to see, not what is there to see.


legzr1

3,843 posts

138 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
Sump said:
That is something that needs to be discussed, why would I give you them?

Firms are realising the real cost of employees and that is why we are seeing more and more businesses investing into technology...just look at self serve checkouts.

Have a gander here : https://youtu.be/CqE89V29WjQ

It's going to happen whether they like it or not.
As I thought, no answers.

smile

jamoor

14,506 posts

214 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Just call an uber for them and get the wheelchair user to pay the usual fare that they would with someone else paying the rest.

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
Chrisgr31 said:
loafer123 said:
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:

https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.
Absolutely.

Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.

Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.
You sure? Every one of the RAIB reports involved as a minimum injuries to a person who was boarding or leaving a train and was caught in the doors as they closed. In most cases where that train was driver only operation the driver should have seen the person in the CCTV but didnt for whatever reason.

The arguments around DOO are complex, but I think the biggest concern is the one that drivers dont see what is there to be seen in the the CCTV. I actually thin this is the same reason cyclists get knocked off. Drivers see what they want to see, not what is there to see.
You may be right, or you may not be...we can't see the content of the reports.

Even if you are right, there will still be incidents with guard operated trains, and the minimal number of incidents overall shows how safe it is whether DOO or not.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
There still needs to be a clear explanation as to how Thameslink can operate their 12 coach train on the very same lines without any guard - and have done for years.

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
There still needs to be a clear explanation as to how Thameslink can operate their 12 coach train on the very same lines without any guard - and have done for years.
This. As soon as the unions cam explain this I'll have sympathy for them. The c2c and ' one ' trains (or whatever they're called today.... Tfl over land?) have also run like it for over 20years seemingly safely.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
So let me summarise:

There aren't enough drivers so overtime is constantly required.

They have some guards with nothing useful to do but don't want them to be out of a job.

If only they could find some people to retrain as drivers? Or find an alternative job for the guards?

truck71

2,328 posts

171 months

Wednesday 14th December 2016
quotequote all
mcdjl said:
Robertj21a said:
There still needs to be a clear explanation as to how Thameslink can operate their 12 coach train on the very same lines without any guard - and have done for years.
This. As soon as the unions cam explain this I'll have sympathy for them. The c2c and ' one ' trains (or whatever they're called today.... Tfl over land?) have also run like it for over 20years seemingly safely.
There is no safety issue, it's a struggle for power being played between the union and the govt. History suggests these things end one way..