How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:
https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:
https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.
Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?
They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
KTF said:
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?
They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
Because they agreed with it then (probably a financial sweetener at the time). Now it suits them to not agree with it !They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
Dogwatch said:
Don't know about Chiltern but apparently the Scotrail agreement is that now the driver opens the doors and the guard closes them! Hardly a giant leap into the 21st century.
New stock was built as DOO but has had to have guards stations retrofitted at a cost of £5m - to the taxpayer. Cost effective? Hmmm.
The new stock is just being built now.New stock was built as DOO but has had to have guards stations retrofitted at a cost of £5m - to the taxpayer. Cost effective? Hmmm.
One of the drivers at my depot took the first partially finished CL385 from Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe to Mossend. Going up there for trials then back for completion.
Robertj21a said:
KTF said:
As driver operated doors are in place on other parts of the network (I assume with similar station layouts, etc) and the unions have agreed to this, what exactly is their issue with it being rolled out further?
They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
Because they agreed with it then (probably a financial sweetener at the time). Now it suits them to not agree with it !They keep saying it is about safety but they don't seem to have thought it an issue until now? Why did they not go on strike when it was first introduced?
legzr1 said:
Sump said:
Heavily invest in making their jobs redundant.
Ho, ho,ho.Another 'automation is the answer' jockey.
Come on then, give us the details, timeline, budget etc.
Firms are realising the real cost of employees and that is why we are seeing more and more businesses investing into technology...just look at self serve checkouts.
Have a gander here : https://youtu.be/CqE89V29WjQ
It's going to happen whether they like it or not.
Sorry but the cynic in me sniffs a politically motivated RMT seeing an opportunity to 'take down' a Train Operating Company under the veil of safety - They retain a policy of seeking denationalisation and the failure of a major Souther England TOC would potentially be a substantial step on that road.
They have - correctly - spotted a combination of a woeful track record, weak management and a vulnerable operating system and frankly have exploited it.
I have zero doubt that there are a large number of people directly involved that have genuine concerns over safety - and over job security - but the general lack of willingness to really engage here has a very familiar whiff around it.
They have - correctly - spotted a combination of a woeful track record, weak management and a vulnerable operating system and frankly have exploited it.
I have zero doubt that there are a large number of people directly involved that have genuine concerns over safety - and over job security - but the general lack of willingness to really engage here has a very familiar whiff around it.
I think its time a lot of london based companies started to look closely at their operating models and move towards more remote and home working and away from costly central based office space. If passenger numbers started to plummet then a solution might be found. I reckon if you looked closely at the jobs people were doing travelling on each train each day the majority of them could be done without the travel and the grind into London every day is just resistance to change by big companies. Ironically, exactly what is being shown by the employees of southern and the unions. All this kind of thing will ever achieve is a desire to march even faster to automation. Strikes like this will do for the train industry what they did for the car industry eventually.
loafer123 said:
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:
https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.
Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.
The arguments around DOO are complex, but I think the biggest concern is the one that drivers dont see what is there to be seen in the the CCTV. I actually thin this is the same reason cyclists get knocked off. Drivers see what they want to see, not what is there to see.
Sump said:
That is something that needs to be discussed, why would I give you them?
Firms are realising the real cost of employees and that is why we are seeing more and more businesses investing into technology...just look at self serve checkouts.
Have a gander here : https://youtu.be/CqE89V29WjQ
It's going to happen whether they like it or not.
As I thought, no answers.Firms are realising the real cost of employees and that is why we are seeing more and more businesses investing into technology...just look at self serve checkouts.
Have a gander here : https://youtu.be/CqE89V29WjQ
It's going to happen whether they like it or not.
Chrisgr31 said:
loafer123 said:
schmunk said:
Steve_W said:
Found this article interesting - written by a commuter:
https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Looking at the table of incidents roughly half-way down the page, a very significant number of them (more than half?) appear to have occurred whilst the train was already moving, meaning that DOO cannot be considered a factor.https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-s...
Indeed, where DOO is in use, from that table only 1 involved the driver not seeing a passenger's hand in the door, 2 are the subject of detailed reports not available and all of the others were trains with the doors already closed and the train departing.
Given the author is an IT professional, his use of logic is surprisingly weak.
The arguments around DOO are complex, but I think the biggest concern is the one that drivers dont see what is there to be seen in the the CCTV. I actually thin this is the same reason cyclists get knocked off. Drivers see what they want to see, not what is there to see.
Even if you are right, there will still be incidents with guard operated trains, and the minimal number of incidents overall shows how safe it is whether DOO or not.
Robertj21a said:
There still needs to be a clear explanation as to how Thameslink can operate their 12 coach train on the very same lines without any guard - and have done for years.
This. As soon as the unions cam explain this I'll have sympathy for them. The c2c and ' one ' trains (or whatever they're called today.... Tfl over land?) have also run like it for over 20years seemingly safely. mcdjl said:
Robertj21a said:
There still needs to be a clear explanation as to how Thameslink can operate their 12 coach train on the very same lines without any guard - and have done for years.
This. As soon as the unions cam explain this I'll have sympathy for them. The c2c and ' one ' trains (or whatever they're called today.... Tfl over land?) have also run like it for over 20years seemingly safely. Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff