How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Unusually, the RAIB report was published before this went to trial. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/passenger-accident...
craigjm said:
RAIB report said:
The second concerns the potential for drivers to be distracted by the use of mobile communication devices while driving.
Thats a strange conclusion to come to when the rest of the report makes no mention of such devices being used.Catweazle said:
craigjm said:
RAIB report said:
The second concerns the potential for drivers to be distracted by the use of mobile communication devices while driving.
Thats a strange conclusion to come to when the rest of the report makes no mention of such devices being used.RemyMartin81D said:
Just another know it all but know f
k all type.
Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
On the contrary I am very in favour of workers perceived rights and civil liberties. k all type. Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Unions however are often totally incapable of understanding how businesses work and don't realise that changes are made to keep businesses afloat and to improve them and sometimes that means job losses or changes to staff roles.
I realise you probably think its all about making sure the bosses and shareholders making more money but reality is that's not the case. Sure the more money it makes the more money they make but if they fail to modernise they will get swamped by overheads and then a lot more people will lose their jobs when the company goes bust or into serious financial trouble.
valiant said:
Now imagine that image on a rammed platform with people fighting to get on or the sun shining onto the monitors or passengers running for the train out of view (notice how you can only see a few feet from the platform edge. then we get the blame for closing the doors on someone
).
I would not describe that as acceptable. Do the platforms have conductors? I assume not.). DOO trains should only be allowed to run where proper and suitable systems are in place for it to be safe.
Realistically a series of at least 720p cameras along each platform shown on an HD screen positioned in such a way that it cannot be obscured by weather conditions would be best.
In fact done right they could double as advertising boards which would help pay for the camera system. You can get a 40-50inch HD screen these days for £300. Bought in bulk it would probably cost no more than £200 per screen.
The fact is the cost of installing such a system would not be that huge in the scheme of things if it was being used as a full replacement for guards. The cost per platform would be made back over the course of a few years quite easily by not having to pay guards salaries.
For all my arguing against the strike I personally think there is still an argument to be made for having a guard on 70-80% of trains however its not cost effective.
Catweazle said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Unusually, the RAIB report was published before this went to trial. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/passenger-accident...
RAIB said:
Our investigation identified that the train driver and other railway staff held the same misunderstanding: if someone had a hand trapped in a door it would not be possible for the door interlock light to illuminate and a driver to take power. This is not the case, and the door was found to be compliant with all applicable standards after the accident.
Then the standards are flawed. Primarily a design issue.legzr1 said:
V8 Fettler said:
Then the standards are flawed. Primarily a design issue.
A fair point but maybe it's worth trying to educate 'users' on the stupidity of shoving a limb into closing doors.legzr1 said:
V8 Fettler said:
Then the standards are flawed. Primarily a design issue.
A fair point but maybe it's worth trying to educate 'users' on the stupidity of shoving a limb into closing doors.Driver was fired.
ASLEF support management on instant dismissal for mobile use whilst driving a train.
Platform staff (not dispatchers) are now provided at Hayes and Southall to assist with DOO, these have helped immeasurably IMO having driven prior and post event.
Subsidiary announcements have been added to PIS which people still ignore on stations where there is no extra staff.
ASLEF support management on instant dismissal for mobile use whilst driving a train.
Platform staff (not dispatchers) are now provided at Hayes and Southall to assist with DOO, these have helped immeasurably IMO having driven prior and post event.
Subsidiary announcements have been added to PIS which people still ignore on stations where there is no extra staff.
V8 Fettler said:
legzr1 said:
V8 Fettler said:
Then the standards are flawed. Primarily a design issue.
A fair point but maybe it's worth trying to educate 'users' on the stupidity of shoving a limb into closing doors.Door are safe. They were made unsafe by improper behaviour. As I've said they have hustle alarms on the doors, extra announcements I mean how much do need to do ensure adults are safe. Ffs.
One advantage of this (plus the works they are doing to Hayes) is the DOO monitors for all formations of train are right down the end of the platform so you can see runners and go before they reach the train....
I've posted on the previous thread to this many times and have suffered this 'farce' now for well over two years, as don't forget the service was appalling before all of the official strikes began, so I wont go over old ground.
I do though, have an observation from my journey in yesterday.
I was am able to catch a DOO Thameslink train from my local station and as we boarded, the train was understandably rammed. We waited a minute or two then the driver came on the tannoy, and said "Someone has their bag stuck in the door on carriage three. I'll open the doors and please pull it in and then I'll close them. Thankyou"
This took another minute or so then we were on our way.
Kind of ironic on a Southern drivers strike day regarding DOO......
I do though, have an observation from my journey in yesterday.
I was am able to catch a DOO Thameslink train from my local station and as we boarded, the train was understandably rammed. We waited a minute or two then the driver came on the tannoy, and said "Someone has their bag stuck in the door on carriage three. I'll open the doors and please pull it in and then I'll close them. Thankyou"
This took another minute or so then we were on our way.
Kind of ironic on a Southern drivers strike day regarding DOO......
Having been involved in DOO introduction and stock safety issues, there are problems in lots of area's that can only be solved in one way.
For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
gadgit said:
Having been involved in DOO introduction and stock safety issues, there are problems in lots of area's that can only be solved in one way.
For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
Every day is a school day!For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
I had no idea that compromises on door pressure was a 'thing' but makes perfect sense.
Uncle John said:
I've posted on the previous thread to this many times and have suffered this 'farce' now for well over two years, as don't forget the service was appalling before all of the official strikes began, so I wont go over old ground.
I do though, have an observation from my journey in yesterday.
I was am able to catch a DOO Thameslink train from my local station and as we boarded, the train was understandably rammed. We waited a minute or two then the driver came on the tannoy, and said "Someone has their bag stuck in the door on carriage three. I'll open the doors and please pull it in and then I'll close them. Thankyou"
This took another minute or so then we were on our way.
Kind of ironic on a Southern drivers strike day regarding DOO......
Were you on a new Thameslink Class 700 unit?I do though, have an observation from my journey in yesterday.
I was am able to catch a DOO Thameslink train from my local station and as we boarded, the train was understandably rammed. We waited a minute or two then the driver came on the tannoy, and said "Someone has their bag stuck in the door on carriage three. I'll open the doors and please pull it in and then I'll close them. Thankyou"
This took another minute or so then we were on our way.
Kind of ironic on a Southern drivers strike day regarding DOO......
ASLEF aren't again DOO on the Brighton Mainline for what it's worth. They're against it being implemented on routes where there are safety concerns etc. Agin, old ground
legzr1 said:
gadgit said:
Having been involved in DOO introduction and stock safety issues, there are problems in lots of area's that can only be solved in one way.
For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
Every day is a school day!For example;
Modern sliding stock micro switches on the doors to complete the interlock which would then allow the driver to depart work fine when the air pressure is high.
When passing another train at 100mph and low pressure is introduced sucking the doors, the interlock can be lost, bringing the train to a stand...
So, here we go again to have a compromise of the air pressure to hold the doors closed, which some people cant escape from.
Obviously, on the underground the pressure does not need to be so high to keep the doors closed due to the lack of speed in this case.
This is just one of many small things that are difficult to overcome on a high speed railway.
Perhaps someone could tell me if the latest trains door mechanism is any better than sone of the older stock in regards to this issue.
I worked with 365 units.
Gadgit.
I had no idea that compromises on door pressure was a 'thing' but makes perfect sense.
Air actuated doors are difficult to set up, drift in service, are susceptible to air pressure, air quality and temperature changes and have to have greater tolerances on the internal switches. I spent many a night trying to set doors up on Class 165/6 at Reading when they were being introduced (and Class 158 were even harder to set up) - but that was the state of the art design at the time. Pretty much everything built since 1997 has moved to electric door actuation which provides far greater resilience to all these issues a well as giving better "obstacle detect" sensing. Time moves on, design moves on.
Edited by nc107 on Wednesday 11th January 17:03
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