How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
Johnnytheboy said:
Trabi601 said:
Even if the safety issues are overcome using technology... What does the country gain from making all these guards redundant?
We are, as a developed world, facing a mounting crisis in the labour market.
We can increasingly automate and drive efficiencies through technology, but when we make these people redundant, what does society gain?
A guard gets a respectable wage and most likely supports a family. Make. Hi redundant and where does he go? - low wage, part time job in the service industry? Stacking shelves, answering phones, maybe? He will struggle to replace his wage.
So, we end up paying working tax credits.
This is increasing becoming a problem. You can't keep making skilled and reasonably well paid workers redundant and re-employing in lower wage and part time roles.
It's not always lack of motivation of whatever else you want to accuse redundant workers of, often it's just the case that either there isn't a job, or the only jobs aren't suitable.
We cannot keep rewarding directors and shareholders for improving profit at the cost of jobs, or wages. There will come a tipping point where the working man will revolt against a failing system. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will come. In the meantime, we will continue to borrow to pay in-work benefits which essentially end up in the pockets of directors and shareholders.
The Southern dispute is the very public face of the mounting troubles.
Hang on, so you are saying that the advantages of keeping people in useful employment is reason in itself to do so? We are, as a developed world, facing a mounting crisis in the labour market.
We can increasingly automate and drive efficiencies through technology, but when we make these people redundant, what does society gain?
A guard gets a respectable wage and most likely supports a family. Make. Hi redundant and where does he go? - low wage, part time job in the service industry? Stacking shelves, answering phones, maybe? He will struggle to replace his wage.
So, we end up paying working tax credits.
This is increasing becoming a problem. You can't keep making skilled and reasonably well paid workers redundant and re-employing in lower wage and part time roles.
It's not always lack of motivation of whatever else you want to accuse redundant workers of, often it's just the case that either there isn't a job, or the only jobs aren't suitable.
We cannot keep rewarding directors and shareholders for improving profit at the cost of jobs, or wages. There will come a tipping point where the working man will revolt against a failing system. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will come. In the meantime, we will continue to borrow to pay in-work benefits which essentially end up in the pockets of directors and shareholders.
The Southern dispute is the very public face of the mounting troubles.
I'm reminded of the story of the UK shipyards bringing in automatic welding machines after WW2 that could do the work of seven manual welders, but to avoid upsetting the unions they kept all seven welders manning each machine.
Which is why our shipbuilding industry only builds ships for our navy now. The difference being Southern Rail's client base don't have an alternative supplier to go to.
If it wont cost the company money long term to retain staff that could be replaced by machines then in some ways it makes sense to retain the staff.If the base mean profit line wont be affected by retaining staff then I see no reason to replace them with machines.
It would only be necessary to replace them if it would affect the companies ability to compete within its market space or if it started to negatively impact on their profit margin.
It could be based on a policy of not forceably getting rid of staff but simply have a natural winding down of staff numbers to be replaced by tech naturally rather than bringing in new tech and forcing staff out to increase profit.
My understanding is that the guards will be retained, and will continue to work as revenue protection. Is this right on the southern.
When our line was turned DOO this is what happened in our area, and no one was made redundant.
As staff retired or excepted redundancy payment (early retirement) the numbers fell.
Not that this makes the issue wrong or right of course.
Some people are still missing the point of course, that this has nothing to do with removal of staff, but what is seen as safety issues.
Just except that just because DOO has gone through on other lines, this does not mean that it is right for all.
As I previously said, there were some poor conditions that were agreed on other companies at the start of DOO that you would not believe by both parties, and southern drivers understand that it is not workable on there patch!
The more I read about this, the more I am understanding the situation.
Gadgit
When our line was turned DOO this is what happened in our area, and no one was made redundant.
As staff retired or excepted redundancy payment (early retirement) the numbers fell.
Not that this makes the issue wrong or right of course.
Some people are still missing the point of course, that this has nothing to do with removal of staff, but what is seen as safety issues.
Just except that just because DOO has gone through on other lines, this does not mean that it is right for all.
As I previously said, there were some poor conditions that were agreed on other companies at the start of DOO that you would not believe by both parties, and southern drivers understand that it is not workable on there patch!
The more I read about this, the more I am understanding the situation.
Gadgit
gadgit said:
My understanding is that the guards will be retained, and will continue to work as revenue protection. Is this right on the southern.
When our line was turned DOO this is what happened in our area, and no one was made redundant.
As staff retired or excepted redundancy payment (early retirement) the numbers fell.
Not that this makes the issue wrong or right of course.
Some people are still missing the point of course, that this has nothing to do with removal of staff, but what is seen as safety issues.
Just except that just because DOO has gone through on other lines, this does not mean that it is right for all.
As I previously said, there were some poor conditions that were agreed on other companies at the start of DOO that you would not believe by both parties, and southern drivers understand that it is not workable on there patch!
The more I read about this, the more I am understanding the situation.
Gadgit
Your view is almost exactly my take on it. I don't however believe DOO is not viable across the entire SR network. There will be a few cases where DOO is not suitable and in those cases should not be implemented but in others I see no reason to have as above.When our line was turned DOO this is what happened in our area, and no one was made redundant.
As staff retired or excepted redundancy payment (early retirement) the numbers fell.
Not that this makes the issue wrong or right of course.
Some people are still missing the point of course, that this has nothing to do with removal of staff, but what is seen as safety issues.
Just except that just because DOO has gone through on other lines, this does not mean that it is right for all.
As I previously said, there were some poor conditions that were agreed on other companies at the start of DOO that you would not believe by both parties, and southern drivers understand that it is not workable on there patch!
The more I read about this, the more I am understanding the situation.
Gadgit
I was unaware that the video imagery the drivers were going to be supplied with was going to be as piss poor as in the photos earlier in the thread though.
Were that the case I would be 100% opposed to DOO.
frankenstein12 said:
Your view is almost exactly my take on it. I don't however believe DOO is not viable across the entire SR network. There will be a few cases where DOO is not suitable and in those cases should not be implemented but in others I see no reason to have as above.
I was unaware that the video imagery the drivers were going to be supplied with was going to be as piss poor as in the photos earlier in the thread though.
Were that the case I would be 100% opposed to DOO.
It is though, I believe in some instances HD camera upgrades, however I can tell you the 387s used on the western region will be used with SD cameras in 8 car formation max with a scope of running 12 car formation once all platforms are extended for 12 car trains (crossrail)I was unaware that the video imagery the drivers were going to be supplied with was going to be as piss poor as in the photos earlier in the thread though.
Were that the case I would be 100% opposed to DOO.
Drivers on southern has appaulong conditions to work in, where's the incentive to work for the management. It's a proper industrial breakdown sadly. Can't see the drivers (or guards) letting go until southern/GTR aren't involved...give it to first group or stagecoach, I wouldn't trust the government to run a 5k fun run let alone a railway.
I mean I love the history of BR the nostalgia, the old photos, the branding and BREL but I don't for one minute forget that is was a total f
k up, last couple years in sectorisation. I mean we truly led the world in train engineering look at the APT project and class 43, 55 and 91 locos. Revolutionary, however management was a total pigs ear for 95% of its life.It is widely known that RMTS main beef is the guards new role will be wound down and removed in time, they don't want this and are fighting it tooth and nail. To accept defeat here is to resign yourself to redundancy.
Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
RemyMartin81D said:
It is widely known that RMTS main beef is the guards new role will be wound down and removed in time, they don't want this and are fighting it tooth and nail. To accept defeat here is to resign yourself to redundancy.
Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
Completely OT but does the "81D" in your username have anything to do with Didcot?Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
There will probably be a few around here who know why I ask the question
rs1952 said:
RemyMartin81D said:
It is widely known that RMTS main beef is the guards new role will be wound down and removed in time, they don't want this and are fighting it tooth and nail. To accept defeat here is to resign yourself to redundancy.
Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
Completely OT but does the "81D" in your username have anything to do with Didcot?Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
There will probably be a few around here who know why I ask the question
Catweazle said:
rs1952 said:
RemyMartin81D said:
It is widely known that RMTS main beef is the guards new role will be wound down and removed in time, they don't want this and are fighting it tooth and nail. To accept defeat here is to resign yourself to redundancy.
Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
Completely OT but does the "81D" in your username have anything to do with Didcot?Aslef issues are not really this although there is some solidarity. I would wager a high percentage of drivers couldn't care about the guards. I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
There will probably be a few around here who know why I ask the question
ks. I can't count. I'm usually better at mental arithmetic than that 81A Old Oak
81B Slough
81C Southall
81D Reading
81E Didcot
81F Oxford
And bearing in mind my BR Steam Allocations database is sitting on this f
king computer and I could have checked it before I posted... well, pretty inexcusable really!I shall post something that makes more sense shortly
RemyMartin81D said:
I do acknowledge some drivers are in RMT though (never understood the reason other than subs cost).
There is probably a good deal of history involved.When I worked for the railway 1969 to 1980, drivers were a race apart. In steam days there was only one route to becoming a driver. You started as an engine cleaner, were promoted to fireman and eventually became a driver. Other than replacing the word fireman with secondman, little changed in the early diesel era. ASLEF was the union for footplate staff and that was the end of the matter.
These days there is much more flexibility, and people can train as drivers from other grades (as well as straight off the street of course). For example, I know somebody who started his railway career in the mid-1970s as a guard and became a driver in the late 80s – this would never have happened under the old system. He’s retired now, but I believe he retained his NUR/ RMT membership right the way through his career
Edited by rs1952 on Thursday 12th January 21:36
Ask some South Eastern drivers why many of their depots are RMT rather than ASLEF and you might understand some of the issues. Union too cosy with management, too complacent with the status quo and too willing to ignore the wishes of their membership resulted in some of the most appalling Ts&Cs imaginable... banked hours, FFS? get a shorter running turn off of spare and you end up owing the company hours? Unbelievable.
I think on the whole the ASLEF do a good job of keeping some balance and intelligence, but over in the death throes of the old Connex SE debalce they certainly seemed to be happy to throw their members to the wolves for the sake of long cosy lunches with management.
I think on the whole the ASLEF do a good job of keeping some balance and intelligence, but over in the death throes of the old Connex SE debalce they certainly seemed to be happy to throw their members to the wolves for the sake of long cosy lunches with management.
Nik da Greek said:
Ask some South Eastern drivers why many of their depots are RMT rather than ASLEF and you might understand some of the issues. Union too cosy with management, too complacent with the status quo and too willing to ignore the wishes of their membership resulted in some of the most appalling Ts&Cs imaginable... banked hours, FFS? get a shorter running turn off of spare and you end up owing the company hours? Unbelievable.
I think on the whole the ASLEF do a good job of keeping some balance and intelligence, but over in the death throes of the old Connex SE debalce they certainly seemed to be happy to throw their members to the wolves for the sake of long cosy lunches with management.
I'm not in the industry but ASLEF certainly comes over as the more professional, by far. The outpourings from RMT have appeared quite poor by comparison - they've certainly not been able to effectively replace Bob Crow.I think on the whole the ASLEF do a good job of keeping some balance and intelligence, but over in the death throes of the old Connex SE debalce they certainly seemed to be happy to throw their members to the wolves for the sake of long cosy lunches with management.
Robertj21a said:
I'm not in the industry but ASLEF certainly comes over as the more professional, by far. The outpourings from RMT have appeared quite poor by comparison - they've certainly not been able to effectively replace Bob Crow.
Like him or loathe him it's fair to say Bob is irreplaceable.Biggest problem for aslef is trying to get people to attend branch meetings.
I used to go to branch meetings although being a driver manager. But only a few times to be fair?
Driver managers still need to be in a drivers union if they have any brains, as they drive trains.
I always felt that not enough people were bothering to go!
Aslef had no problem with me being a member.
The biggest problem that aslef had during the DOO agreements was trying to get the results of the agreements to all their drivers.
So many drivers had not bothered to read what had been signed for on their behalf......can you imagine the results on the first day.
I'm not prepared to go into this any more!
Gadgit.
I used to go to branch meetings although being a driver manager. But only a few times to be fair?
Driver managers still need to be in a drivers union if they have any brains, as they drive trains.
I always felt that not enough people were bothering to go!
Aslef had no problem with me being a member.
The biggest problem that aslef had during the DOO agreements was trying to get the results of the agreements to all their drivers.
So many drivers had not bothered to read what had been signed for on their behalf......can you imagine the results on the first day.
I'm not prepared to go into this any more!
Gadgit.
gadgit said:
Biggest problem for aslef is trying to get people to attend branch meetings.
I used to go to branch meetings although being a driver manager. But only a few times to be fair?
Driver managers still need to be in a drivers union if they have any brains, as they drive trains.
I always felt that not enough people were bothering to go!
Aslef had no problem with me being a member.
The biggest problem that aslef had during the DOO agreements was trying to get the results of the agreements to all their drivers.
So many drivers had not bothered to read what had been signed for on their behalf......can you imagine the results on the first day.
I'm not prepared to go into this any more!
Gadgit.
I'm a bus driver.I used to go to branch meetings although being a driver manager. But only a few times to be fair?
Driver managers still need to be in a drivers union if they have any brains, as they drive trains.
I always felt that not enough people were bothering to go!
Aslef had no problem with me being a member.
The biggest problem that aslef had during the DOO agreements was trying to get the results of the agreements to all their drivers.
So many drivers had not bothered to read what had been signed for on their behalf......can you imagine the results on the first day.
I'm not prepared to go into this any more!
Gadgit.
We have the same problem, drivers moan about the union in the canteen, but never attend union meetings!
Well, at least aslef leader item in the guardian clears up the situation somewhat.
This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
gadgit said:
Well, at least aslef leader item in the guardian clears up the situation somewhat.
This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
He comes across well, gets to the point and gives a side of the argument some posters on this thread have 'demanded'.This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
I'm interested to hear their views.
legzr1 said:
gadgit said:
Well, at least aslef leader item in the guardian clears up the situation somewhat.
This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
He comes across well, gets to the point and gives a side of the argument some posters on this thread have 'demanded'.This is exactly what I have been saying throughout this dispute.....
Most, if not all the previous doo agreements have been only applicable to the situations at the other TOCs, and a lot of bad agreements were also made.
Most doo drivers will no doubt know the bad ones that they are having to put up with!
Perhaps (although it may not get through to some) the general public can now understand the approach of the southern drivers feelings.
Hopefully after reading the article, some of the public will now come back on here and say that they now understand the drivers position
Gadgit
I'm interested to hear their views.
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