How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
Nik da Greek said:
The problem is we now live in a world where we have to protect every living cretin from their own stupidity. It's why there are no interesting-looking cars built any more because they have to be a nice place for some iPod-wearing moron to get run over. 15 years ago on slam-door trains it was accepted that halfwits would open the doors and make a running landing on the platform when the train was still doing 30mph. Nowadays we have to legislate for all those retards who think the hustle alarm means "fling yourself at the train in the blind optimism you're a) capable of ninja-level acrobatics rather than a portly forty-something who last ran in 1987 and b) you won't at the least have one of your favourite limbs squashed/fall under the train and juice yourself like a frying sausage/at best be the target of derision from your more fortunate travelling peers inside the train/miss it anyway/all of the above".
Nothing like a bit of hyperbole for dramatic effect.
I spent 5 days a week for well over two decades commuting to and from London by public transport. Long before the first power operated doors arrived on scene I had made countless touchdowns from the old slam door stock. As well as hopping on/off open platform RT/RTL/Routemaster buses. Like any other activity which requires skill to carry out it took practice to get it right if you were to avoid ending up on the deck like a sack of potatoes. Never even received so much as a sprained ankle but then I wasn't doing it at anywhere near the speed you mention.
Making foot contact with a stationary hard surface at 30mph and you would almost certainly end up arse over tip and several times. Most likely with a trip to A&E as a result.
As for the Southern dispute, the whole sorry saga is riddled with the usual rhetoric, posturing, half truths and lies. One thing that can be reasonably inferred though is that the government is the puppeteer in all of this to suit its political ends.
I'm glad I don't have to go to work using Southern's shoddy service (or lack of it).
The TSGN Franchise Agreeement for those who may be interested - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Red Devil said:
Nothing like a bit of hyperbole for dramatic effect.
I spent 5 days a week for well over two decades commuting to and from London by public transport. Long before the first power operated doors arrived on scene I had made countless touchdowns from the old slam door stock. As well as hopping on/off open platform RT/RTL/Routemaster buses. Like any other activity which requires skill to carry out it took practice to get it right if you were to avoid ending up on the deck like a sack of potatoes. Never even received so much as a sprained ankle but then I wasn't doing it at anywhere near the speed you mention.
And in my days on the railway (1969 to 1980) one of the local boozers was known to the drivers as "the mess room." Drivers whacking back a few and then driving trains, both passenger and freight, was an everyday occurence.I spent 5 days a week for well over two decades commuting to and from London by public transport. Long before the first power operated doors arrived on scene I had made countless touchdowns from the old slam door stock. As well as hopping on/off open platform RT/RTL/Routemaster buses. Like any other activity which requires skill to carry out it took practice to get it right if you were to avoid ending up on the deck like a sack of potatoes. Never even received so much as a sprained ankle but then I wasn't doing it at anywhere near the speed you mention.
The boozer in question was 100 yards from the MPD across a railway bridge with an unprotected boarded footway to one side (for railway staff use only). One night, one particular driver, having booked on spare at 2200 and having nothing immediate to do, asked the Running Foreman if he could go down the pub. The answer was in the affirmative.
A few pints later and on the way back along that crossing he stumbled at just the wrong moment. Luckily the engine hit him out of the way rather than under the front wheels, but even so he was off sick for three months.
D'you want those days back as well?
gadgit said:
My understanding is that the guards will be retained, and will continue to work as revenue protection. Is this right on the southern.
Gadgit
I had a question (and actually a couple more) about this from reading more in the papers recently. Gadgit
- Have southern actually stated that their overall ambition is less staff, or are they not saying anything, and people are inferring?
- if they are moved into a 'revenue protection role' - do we know for certain this means that they won't every help with saftey? - I assume in the nasty/rare scenarios that have been suggested here (someone has clothing/bag caught in door; driver doesn't notice and pulls away) they couldn't completely ignore the situation and would have to do something - or am I being naive?
Safety Critical as a railway term applies to the track and train as well as individual passenger issues. If staff are not safety critical (as is the case with revenue protection staff) they are not trained to assist in times of emergency. This means they cannot go on the track, perform train evacuation, are not trained how to make an emergency call to the signal box or Electrical Control Office so cannot isolate power, rescue people from the line, deal with any train accident, control a situation when the driver is incapacitated, etc etc. The ramifications are massive and it doesn't take a great imagination to apply this to recent incidents on the railway such as the Virgin train derailment, the many accidents on level crossings such as Ufton Nervet and all the less high-profile day to day suicides, train fires, passengers taken ill...
Essentially all a revenue staff member can do is what any member of the public can do with the added sanction of being able to contact the driver and hope for the best - which any random Joe Public can do anyway via the Call for Aid or Passenger Emergency buttons
Essentially all a revenue staff member can do is what any member of the public can do with the added sanction of being able to contact the driver and hope for the best - which any random Joe Public can do anyway via the Call for Aid or Passenger Emergency buttons
And Saftey Critical came after the Clapham train crash(Dec 12th 1988), the Sir Anthony Hidden report made numerous recommendations, involving working hours shift length etc. Max 11 hour day, 12 hours between shifts(not including own travelling time) no more than 13 consecutive days, drugs and alcohol screening came as well although I'not sure if it was a direct recommendation. This is done at routine medicals, post incident and on a random basis. Saftey Critical is applied to anyone who's job takes them trackside. Post privatisation many of these recommendations have been diluted.
phatmanace said:
I had a question (and actually a couple more) about this from reading more in the papers recently.
- Have southern actually stated that their overall ambition is less staff, or are they not saying anything, and people are inferring?
- if they are moved into a 'revenue protection role' - do we know for certain this means that they won't every help with saftey? - I assume in the nasty/rare scenarios that have been suggested here (someone has clothing/bag caught in door; driver doesn't notice and pulls away) they couldn't completely ignore the situation and would have to do something - or am I being naive?
My understanding from listening to the soundbites on BBC Sussex is that Southern have guaranteed all the current guards jobs, at their current pay, and all the guards except one have signed the new contract. I seem to remember something about a £2000 bonus to sign?- Have southern actually stated that their overall ambition is less staff, or are they not saying anything, and people are inferring?
- if they are moved into a 'revenue protection role' - do we know for certain this means that they won't every help with saftey? - I assume in the nasty/rare scenarios that have been suggested here (someone has clothing/bag caught in door; driver doesn't notice and pulls away) they couldn't completely ignore the situation and would have to do something - or am I being naive?
This seems to allow a reduction in staff numbers through natural wastage in the future.
If there is no safety training required, Southern could then use agency staff on minimum wage to check tickets, and I think (personal opinion only) this is one of the things the unions are really fighting against.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/17/n...
No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
Hereward said:
Great news that "full train service" to be restored. I wonder what was agreed...
I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
Agree with that! I'm sick of the last two years and the whole damn thing in general.....I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
Just don't care anymore who's fault it is, let's just get back to some normality.
Ah, the news headline was misleading. We're not out of the woods yet.
The delighftul ASLEF spokesperson allegedly states "Once strikes have been called off, we can't put them back. We would have to look at other dates if the talks fail."
So if the talks don't bear fruit the commuters will be punished again.
The delighftul ASLEF spokesperson allegedly states "Once strikes have been called off, we can't put them back. We would have to look at other dates if the talks fail."
So if the talks don't bear fruit the commuters will be punished again.
Hereward said:
Great news that "full train service" to be restored. I wonder what was agreed...
I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
How was the service for the 24 months leading up to this dispute?I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
Rick101 said:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/17/n...
No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
I am somewhat surprised that this is legal. Very bad news.No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
Stedman said:
Hereward said:
Great news that "full train service" to be restored. I wonder what was agreed...
I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
How was the service for the 24 months leading up to this dispute?I hope this is true and long-lasting. It will be great to get some semblance of order back, the last 9 months have genuinely affected my mental health.
NickCQ said:
Rick101 said:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/17/n...
No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
I am somewhat surprised that this is legal. Very bad news.No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern
Until such time as there is a train where the doors are at the same level as the platform height, there will always be the need for ramps to help customers with wheelchairs on and off. As such, wheelchair users are generally put off using the train to get around, and take other means of transport.
However even with all the guarantees that are still in place, several wheelchair users on trains across the country, even those with guards, have been left unhelped and stranded either on board, or on the platform, because the guard on the train or station staff have been unable to get to them. Also, there is no consistency across all franchises as to what they must provide and when. Its mostly about having to book yourself onto a specific train and telling the train company that you need help. Self-assistance isn't possible in the current set up.
tight5 said:
As we pretty much exactly said some time ago... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... For me this is categoric proof that the Government and the rail companies and all layers in between have all along been complicit in a greater agenda than merely removing expensive levels of training from customer-facing staff. They knew all along this would lead to industrial disputes. It was what they wanted, in factNik da Greek said:
As we pretty much exactly said some time ago... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... For me this is categoric proof that the Government and the rail companies and all layers in between have all along been complicit in a greater agenda than merely removing expensive levels of training from customer-facing staff. They knew all along this would lead to industrial disputes. It was what they wanted, in fact
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