How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

[legzr1]

Robertj21a said:

Not sure why it's a shambles ?

Having read that paragraph a couple of times it seems to all be legal - or is the RMT suggesting that the Courts are biased ?

The whole process has been a shambles rather than that paragraph specifically although the promise of waiving a considerable sum in legal fees seems to have focused Union resolve in a certain direction.

Earlier in the dispute a certain amount of the membership was stopped from being balloted by court order. A few short months later, members already contracted to work DOO (and have been for a while) where included in the latest ballot - "there you go lads and lasses, tick here for 28.5% over 5 years for doing exactly as you have been doing".

I haven't read the agreement yet but I'm expecting a few vague references to trained replacements for fully safety-critical guards as some sort of appeasement.

On a personal level, if I was a RMT member currently employed as a guard I'd be feeling a little pissed off and betrayed today.

I honesty believe this is a backwards step for the safety of passengers no matter how much the final cost for the bribery

[legzr1]

jamoor said:

It's amazing what the lack of competition in a marketplace and a service not run for the public benefit can do.

I'm sure you have the answers.

Care to share them?

[Robertj21a]

legzr1 said:

The whole process has been a shambles rather than that paragraph specifically although the promise of waiving a considerable sum in legal fees seems to have focused Union resolve in a certain direction.

Earlier in the dispute a certain amount of the membership was stopped from being balloted by court order. A few short months later, members already contracted to work DOO (and have been for a while) where included in the latest ballot - "there you go lads and lasses, tick here for 28.5% over 5 years for doing exactly as you have been doing".

I haven't read the agreement yet but I'm expecting a few vague references to trained replacements for fully safety-critical guards as some sort of appeasement.

On a personal level, if I was a RMT member currently employed as a guard I'd be feeling a little pissed off and betrayed today.

I honesty believe this is a backwards step for the safety of passengers no matter how much the final cost for the bribery

Like you, I haven't seen the agreement but, at present, I'm not sure there are any significant differences to what was proposed (and rejected) before. I'm assuming that there is a bit of tightening up on what the OBS is now expected to undertake, but otherwise .......?. In which case the safety issues remain much the same as before (and Thameslink continue to run 12-coach trains as DOO - through the centre of London).

[rs1952]

legzr1 said:

jamoor said:

It's amazing what the lack of competition in a marketplace and a service not run for the public benefit can do.

I'm sure you have the answers.

Care to share them?

I' waiting to see them too.

After reading that one-line post and deciding that it needed a 5000-word answer or none at all, this time I went for the latter

Suffice to say the poster appears to be about as clued up on the railway system as those foootball experts who sit in their armchairs on Saturday afternoon yelling advice to the manager on how to run a team...

[legzr1]

Robertj21a said:

Like you, I haven't seen the agreement but, at present, I'm not sure there are any significant differences to what was proposed (and rejected) before. I'm assuming that there is a bit of tightening up on what the OBS is now expected to undertake, but otherwise .......?. In which case the safety issues remain much the same as before (and Thameslink continue to run 12-coach trains as DOO - through the centre of London).

From the little I've read, the obligations to tighten up on when services are allowed to run without an OBS have been agreed on. After all that's been said and done it seems a little weird to paint this as some sort of success in negotiations.

Whatever, trains will run,one-line experts won't need to comment in this thread and drivers get a few £££. RMT must be fking furious (and rightly so in my left wing, commie bd opinion).

There was another incident reported on last week where a punter fell between train and platform. Luckily, no serious injuries - obviously the thought of money saved a life in this case...

[frankenstein12]

legzr1 said:

frankenstein12 said:

Indeed. That's what it always boils down to with the rail staff. Money. Fear not they will be on strike again soon and will have to be given an even bigger bribe to do their job that already pays them way more than its worth.

I expect you'll be applying for a job if you think you're up to it?

Tempting but I prefer to actually earn my money by doing a decent weeks work for it.

[Nik da Greek]

maybe just worth pointing out that Thameslink have already re-branded all their platform staff so they no longer have any responsibility for train dispatch. And they are already halved in number, and those that are left spend most of the time hiding. Southern are imminently following suit, with even stations like East Croydon removing dispatch duties from staff in the near future. East Croydon, one of the densest traffic flows of any station...

You as a passenger are now less safe getting on and off a train than at any time in the last few decades. It's fine though, the driver has a screen that shows him 1/12th of a VDU's worth of train/platform interface. He'll spot you round two curves in the platform past all the signs, infrastructure and three hundred other people and notice you've got your scarf caught in the door before it comes to you being dragged at 50mph alongside a 400-ton train until anyone notices the screaming. And certainly it'll come as great soothing succour to your grieving family when they bury you on a sheet of blotting paper that the driver will now be facing 15 years inside for his negligence

[legzr1]

frankenstein12 said:

Tempting but I prefer to actually earn my money by doing a decent weeks work for it.

Only a pillock without any idea of what the job entails would post such nonsense in my experience

No matter, not as if the railway are missing out on a star employee I suppose.

[legzr1]

rs1952 said:

I' waiting to see them too.

After reading that one-line post and deciding that it needed a 5000-word answer or none at all, this time I went for the latter

Suffice to say the poster appears to be about as clued up on the railway system as those foootball experts who sit in their armchairs on Saturday afternoon yelling advice to the manager on how to run a team...

Agreed.

On all points.

Sometimes best to leave the ignorant in ignorance.

[Nik da Greek]

lot of RMT blokes apparently "didn't come in" today, dunno whether officially or not. ASLEF obviously are happy since they recommended drivers should have taken the first offer way back when. Maybe some credit should be given to those staff who defied the Union whip for so long and at least highlighted the appalling compromise on safety for so long and so vociferously.

Nope, easier to hide behind "whataboutism". What about me, I'm an IT goblin in some airconditioned bunker that never interacts with another human being and the most responsibility I ever had was ordering the wrong paperclips but no-one died, phew. I haven't had a payrise in years, why should anyone else get one

[NDA]

Nik da Greek said:

You as a passenger are now less safe getting on and off a train than at any time in the last few decades.

How do other countries manage without guards? How does the tube manage?

As a mere passenger, I'm fed up being used as a bargaining chip for higher pay.

[legzr1]

NDA said:

How do other countries manage without guards? How does the tube manage?

I don't know. Perhaps building systems from the ground up to operate DOO made things a tad less complicated.

NDA said:

As a mere passenger, I'm fed up being used as a bargaining chip for higher pay.

It's a shame you feel that way.
Would your plight be easier to stomach if the disagreement was actually about preventing deaths?

Serious question.

[legzr1]

Nik da Greek said:

lot of RMT blokes apparently "didn't come in" today, dunno whether officially or not. ASLEF obviously are happy since they recommended drivers should have taken the first offer way back when. Maybe some credit should be given to those staff who defied the Union whip for so long and at least highlighted the appalling compromise on safety for so long and so vociferously.

Nope, easier to hide behind "whataboutism". What about me, I'm an IT goblin in some airconditioned bunker that never interacts with another human being and the most responsibility I ever had was ordering the wrong paperclips but no-one died, phew. I haven't had a payrise in years, why should anyone else get one

Well said.

[NDA]

legzr1 said:

NDA said:

How do other countries manage without guards? How does the tube manage?

I don't know. Perhaps building systems from the ground up to operate DOO made things a tad less complicated.

NDA said:

As a mere passenger, I'm fed up being used as a bargaining chip for higher pay.

It's a shame you feel that way.
Would your plight be easier to stomach if the disagreement was actually about preventing deaths?

Serious question.

They've been paid more money - the dispute has gone away. Was it ever about preventing deaths rather than protecting jobs?

Driver only trains operate all over the world - and on about 30% of the UK rail network. The tube network used to have guards and wasn't built from the 'ground up' up to be driver only. Driver only now though.

The UK rail safety regulator says "We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."

It's not just my plight, it's the anger of thousands of passengers who are fed up of being held hostage to pay negotiations.

[legzr1]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I thought it was for 110 mph speeds - loco hauled sets already capable of the ton before HST introduction.

In the mid 70s I think it's fair to say lineside equipment (including signalling) wasn't up to modern standards. Another pair of eyes made perfect sense. It's still done over 40 years later when certain pieces of in-cab equipment fail/are isolated.

[legzr1]

NDA said:

They've been paid more money - the dispute has gone away. Was it ever about preventing deaths rather than protecting jobs?

Driver only trains operate all over the world - and on about 30% of the UK rail network. The tube network used to have guards and wasn't built from the 'ground up' up to be driver only. Driver only now though.

The UK rail safety regulator says "We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."

It's not just my plight, it's the anger of thousands of passengers who are fed up of being held hostage to pay negotiations.

Those directly involved in the day to day operation say it is all about safety - any guarantees by TOCs to supply additional OBS on all trains (if indeed that is what has happened) has brought the dispute with Aslef to an end. The money offered is similar to that offered months ago but industrial action still proceeded - the only change between them and now is additional guarantees on OBS.

But, it's all about the money apparently.

Oh, and disruption to passengers just because, well, because unions can...

As for your DOO argument - afraid that doesn't wash.
Read Nik's post above for an experienced, succinct opinion on it.

Edited by legzr1 on Thursday 9th November 20:15

[Nik da Greek]

How is a massive number of highly trained professional safety-critical staff refusing to take the easy option of trousering a huge pay rise for almost two years because they are principled enough to promote the safety of their client base above all else "using passengers as a bargaining chip for higher pay?"

I don't understand that attitude at all. The offer they have accepted is substantively the same one as was offered at the start of the dispute, except with more guarantees over staffing levels on trains. They could have just taken the money at the beginning without all the hardship they've put themselves through, public vilification and loss of earning through strike action if the money was all they cared about.

How long do you expect people to put themselves out on others' account before it's acceptable for them to please themselves and feed their own families?

[frankenstein12]

legzr1 said:

frankenstein12 said:

Tempting but I prefer to actually earn my money by doing a decent weeks work for it.

Only a pillock without any idea of what the job entails would post such nonsense in my experience

No matter, not as if the railway are missing out on a star employee I suppose.

Sorry but it cannot possibly be that hard of a job. Pilots get paid less ffs. The drivers are now going to be on a salary of up to £75k a year apparently.

So please stop trying to make out that as train drivers you have a hard or extremely taxing technical job.

[Nik da Greek]

frankenstein12 said:

Sorry but it cannot possibly be that hard of a job. Pilots get paid less ffs. The drivers are now going to be on a salary of up to £75k a year apparently.

So please stop trying to make out that as train drivers you have a hard or extremely taxing technical job.

So all you have left is plain insults and ignorance then? You clearly know nothing and talk rubbish so well done for discrediting your own "arguments"

It takes 18 months minimum to train a driver to the point where they are allowed charge of a train on their own, and tens of thousands of pounds for the TOC per driver to get to that point. Obviously they do all that just because it's a piece of piss and any halfwit can do it.

Jog on, you fool

[legzr1]

frankenstein12 said:

Sorry but it cannot possibly be that hard of a job. Pilots get paid less ffs. The drivers are now going to be on a salary of up to £75k a year apparently.

So please stop trying to make out that as train drivers you have a hard or extremely taxing technical job.

With all due respect, bks my friend.

I don't do your job, I'm not qualified to do it and frankly I don't care what your job is but I wouldn't be foolish enough to judge the merits of it based on nothing but angst-ridden ignorance. Perhaps with a sprinkle of envy too? Perhaps not.

I work with a few ex-pilots with more to come apparently. Why? Because rather than whinge on a motoring forum about how easy train drivers have it they chose to get off their idle arses, apply and get jobs driving.

You?