If I can sail a Dart 18 and a Laser can I sail an RS600
Discussion
I don't think a 600 is a good idea for an occasional sailor.
The 600 is a lovely boat but really rather difficult to sail - the fully battened main and tippy characteristics make it a tough one to stay on top of (literally). Gybing is even a moderate breeze is massively difficult in the 600 and although I'm sure you could master it eventually, it would take many swims, many aborted days and much pain and suffering. I suspect you'd grow tired of the boat before you managed to get comfortable with it. A 700 could work as some of them are cheap but the really easy trapeze boat is the 800 - lovely and stable, fast and forgiving. You'll need a crew of course though.
Better to try a Contender - they are still challenging, fun and wicked fast on a reach, but much more accessible for the more occasional sailor.
The 600 is a lovely boat but really rather difficult to sail - the fully battened main and tippy characteristics make it a tough one to stay on top of (literally). Gybing is even a moderate breeze is massively difficult in the 600 and although I'm sure you could master it eventually, it would take many swims, many aborted days and much pain and suffering. I suspect you'd grow tired of the boat before you managed to get comfortable with it. A 700 could work as some of them are cheap but the really easy trapeze boat is the 800 - lovely and stable, fast and forgiving. You'll need a crew of course though.
Better to try a Contender - they are still challenging, fun and wicked fast on a reach, but much more accessible for the more occasional sailor.
I believe Contenders do a reach - their best point of sail is a reach just aft of beam where they blast along nicely whilst you laze on the wire at the back of the boat, steering up and down to manage heel.
I would warn anyone off an RS600 unless they have recent experience in something tippy like an RS300, or have reasonably good experience in a trapeze boat like an RS800 (boats from other manufacturers are available). They are cheap for two reasons: (1) the class was decimated by the Musto Skiff and RS700; and (2) they are bloody hard to sail unless you put the time in. Don't get me wrong, when you can sail one they are great, like a turbocharged Contender, but difficult to get to that level for someone that isn't sailing most weekends.
I would warn anyone off an RS600 unless they have recent experience in something tippy like an RS300, or have reasonably good experience in a trapeze boat like an RS800 (boats from other manufacturers are available). They are cheap for two reasons: (1) the class was decimated by the Musto Skiff and RS700; and (2) they are bloody hard to sail unless you put the time in. Don't get me wrong, when you can sail one they are great, like a turbocharged Contender, but difficult to get to that level for someone that isn't sailing most weekends.
chrisga said:
Hello from another the other fellow previous Boss owner....
Fixed that for you...My 2p worth...get confident on a trapeze first. From what I can glean from the thread you've not trapezed before, so trying to learn that and learn to sail a tippy boat at the same time will be tricky. You will do all the classic mistakes as have been pointed out plus the classic "big bear away as you go out" one.
It only needs a few goes, but try crewing on an 800/Fireball or similar first until you get really confident with that and can go in/out without thinking about it and then try the 600. A Contender is a more stable introduction to driving from the wire but they are bloody heavy to drag around and there's very little room under the boom compared to a 600.
Hard-Drive said:
chrisga said:
Hello from another the other fellow previous Boss owner....
Fixed that for you...My 2p worth...get confident on a trapeze first. From what I can glean from the thread you've not trapezed before, so trying to learn that and learn to sail a tippy boat at the same time will be tricky. You will do all the classic mistakes as have been pointed out plus the classic "big bear away as you go out" one.
It only needs a few goes, but try crewing on an 800/Fireball or similar first until you get really confident with that and can go in/out without thinking about it and then try the 600. A Contender is a more stable introduction to driving from the wire but they are bloody heavy to drag around and there's very little room under the boom compared to a 600.
Norfolkandchance said:
HI, Think I have alluded to experience on the wire a number of times. Not least on the Dart in the title. Trapeze experience not the issue. Thanks for the reply though.
How is your monohull trapezing though? Not trying to put you off, but cats are different beasts, with a lot more stability than any mono. Get a big wheel trolley for the Dart, or a Jib & crew to hold it in the waves.
MBBlat said:
Norfolkandchance said:
HI, Think I have alluded to experience on the wire a number of times. Not least on the Dart in the title. Trapeze experience not the issue. Thanks for the reply though.
How is your monohull trapezing though? Not trying to put you off, but cats are different beasts, with a lot more stability than any mono. Get a big wheel trolley for the Dart, or a Jib & crew to hold it in the waves.
I have plenty of experience on both monohull and cats with trapeze but still think OP question is legitimate.
Lots of fair & decent comments in the above.
Certainly, when I used to race Laser 4000s, we'd compete alongside RS600s quite regularly. I'd have comfortably sailed one at the time.
But if your experience is mostly cats, a skiff is quite a different beast and, while it's not impossible to learn as you go, you'll probably spend a fair big of time getting wet before it really "clicks". For example, on a cat, on trapeze, the wind drops a little - it drops onto 1 hull. A skiff, not only do you have to make sure you're in, but you have to start coming in before it starts dropping you...you really have to anticpate every last move.
That said - if I ever owned & raced a single handed dinghy again (that was for me, not the kids) - it would be an RS600. But I'd also spend 3 months in the gym and volunteer myself as crew for someone to get my hand back in first.
Certainly, when I used to race Laser 4000s, we'd compete alongside RS600s quite regularly. I'd have comfortably sailed one at the time.
But if your experience is mostly cats, a skiff is quite a different beast and, while it's not impossible to learn as you go, you'll probably spend a fair big of time getting wet before it really "clicks". For example, on a cat, on trapeze, the wind drops a little - it drops onto 1 hull. A skiff, not only do you have to make sure you're in, but you have to start coming in before it starts dropping you...you really have to anticpate every last move.
That said - if I ever owned & raced a single handed dinghy again (that was for me, not the kids) - it would be an RS600. But I'd also spend 3 months in the gym and volunteer myself as crew for someone to get my hand back in first.
Edited by Arnold Cunningham on Saturday 25th February 10:44
Hard-Drive said:
chrisga said:
Unless someone else decides it is of course.
...in which case they'd be wrong 
Misto Skiff and RS700 decimated the 600 class, I think we'd agree they're skiff's but the only real differentiatornis the kite.
Is that the kicker for your opinion?
MBBlat said:
Norfolkandchance said:
HI, Think I have alluded to experience on the wire a number of times. Not least on the Dart in the title. Trapeze experience not the issue. Thanks for the reply though.
How is your monohull trapezing though? Not trying to put you off, but cats are different beasts, with a lot more stability than any mono. Get a big wheel trolley for the Dart, or a Jib & crew to hold it in the waves.
I cut my trapeze teeth crewing Fireballs then a couple of seasons on a Laser 2 and another couple on a B14E where we won the club championship. Various Hornet, 470 and 505 races too. This was all over 20 years ago though.
The original question was focused on the RS600 because better sailors than me who place at nationals and Europeans in boats of similar or higher performance than the RS600 seemed to find the 600 tricky. I have no fear of a contender and little of an RS700, expect that I would be far from getting the best out of it, but the RS600, as this thread seems to have confirmed, is tippy and hard work. So not for me as an occasional sailor, these days.
Thanks for all the adivce, people.
Edited by Norfolkandchance on Saturday 25th February 19:49
Bit rude, hey-ho. But that's pistonheads these days. No one gives a s
t about helping each other out, only about proving someone else is wrong.
To clarify, by skiff I mean the submerged hull design, compared to more classic designs of hull.
t about helping each other out, only about proving someone else is wrong.To clarify, by skiff I mean the submerged hull design, compared to more classic designs of hull.
Hard-Drive said:
A 600 is not a skiff. The end.
Arnold, actually I did help out, and my post about a 600 not being a skiff was somewhat tongue in cheek as it has been done to death on other sailing forums and slightly varies in definition from country to country. I also feel fairly well qualified to comment having raced 12' skiffs and 18' skiffs a lot in the past, and I currently sail a 49er.
The Aussies invented skiffs...and typically they were fairly short, workboat derived sailing vessels with a ludicrous amount of canvas and crew for their size. When the asymmetric spinnaker was invented, true "skiffs" were a derivative of those, light, fast, typically carried to the water rather than wheeled in, no halyards (you rig the boat on it's side), again with an excess of rag, and two or three crew, most of whom were trapezing. Bowsprits were often fixed, and different sized rigs for varying wind conditions were available. Of the main skiff classes (12, 14, 16,18) only the 16 had the driver sitting down whilst the two crew wired. Boats are often one-offs, or batch produced in low volumes, with a minimum number of rules to allow development and innovation in a class. Also, in a proper skiff race, there are no sail numbers, boats usually being identified by their name or sponsor, although in the past few years this has changed. Typically, skiff crews don't wear bouyancy aids, as big crashes are frequent and erm, logic, dictates that it's better to be able to swim down and away from the rig and racks. Sadly there have been at least two entrapment incidents in recent years in 18s.
As you can tell it's not exactly "black and white", and however the dinghy manufacturer marketing machine got on board and started declaring that anything slightly fast with an asymmetric kite was a "skiff", even though most of the areas mentioned above were not met. 49er/RS800/Boss/L5K...yeah possibly. RS600...no way. One person in a small moderately canvassed boat with no kite is not a skiff. It's a Contender with racks and a few less kilos...it's a lovely boat but it ain't no skiff.
12' skiff...
18' skiff...
A very nice responsive singlehanded high perfomance trapeze boat but not a skiff...
The Aussies invented skiffs...and typically they were fairly short, workboat derived sailing vessels with a ludicrous amount of canvas and crew for their size. When the asymmetric spinnaker was invented, true "skiffs" were a derivative of those, light, fast, typically carried to the water rather than wheeled in, no halyards (you rig the boat on it's side), again with an excess of rag, and two or three crew, most of whom were trapezing. Bowsprits were often fixed, and different sized rigs for varying wind conditions were available. Of the main skiff classes (12, 14, 16,18) only the 16 had the driver sitting down whilst the two crew wired. Boats are often one-offs, or batch produced in low volumes, with a minimum number of rules to allow development and innovation in a class. Also, in a proper skiff race, there are no sail numbers, boats usually being identified by their name or sponsor, although in the past few years this has changed. Typically, skiff crews don't wear bouyancy aids, as big crashes are frequent and erm, logic, dictates that it's better to be able to swim down and away from the rig and racks. Sadly there have been at least two entrapment incidents in recent years in 18s.
As you can tell it's not exactly "black and white", and however the dinghy manufacturer marketing machine got on board and started declaring that anything slightly fast with an asymmetric kite was a "skiff", even though most of the areas mentioned above were not met. 49er/RS800/Boss/L5K...yeah possibly. RS600...no way. One person in a small moderately canvassed boat with no kite is not a skiff. It's a Contender with racks and a few less kilos...it's a lovely boat but it ain't no skiff.
12' skiff...
18' skiff...
A very nice responsive singlehanded high perfomance trapeze boat but not a skiff...
And of course for those of us based in the UK the 600 could qualify as a skiff if we use the Oxford Dictionary definition "a small light boat for rowing or sailing, usually for one person".....
And the urban dictionary adds a whole new element for those who enjoy a bit of skiffing: NSFW Warning
:-)
And the urban dictionary adds a whole new element for those who enjoy a bit of skiffing: NSFW Warning
:-)
Edited by chrisga on Sunday 26th February 21:42
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