Pilots of PH - Did you believe you could do it?
Discussion
A lot of candidates get through the exams on feedback from previous exams. When I sat the ATPL theory, they had just changed over from one governing syllabus to another, so there was no feedback. Having sat the CPL exams about 4 years previous, there was a marked difference in terms of ease. As said before, it's more volume than anything else, and some subjects are 'bankers'.
I was always confident that if I could get through the academia, then the rest was in the bag. The CPL and IR flight tests are the culmination of the licencing process, but they're actually straight forward, although I've seen plenty of people get worked up into fluffing it, and having to retake.
Commercial flying isn't really flying these days. It's an exercise in arse-covering. If you want to fly, then get a PPL. I spent an hour yesterday, in a microlight doing circuits on my own. Great fun.
I was always confident that if I could get through the academia, then the rest was in the bag. The CPL and IR flight tests are the culmination of the licencing process, but they're actually straight forward, although I've seen plenty of people get worked up into fluffing it, and having to retake.
Commercial flying isn't really flying these days. It's an exercise in arse-covering. If you want to fly, then get a PPL. I spent an hour yesterday, in a microlight doing circuits on my own. Great fun.
brenflys777 said:
Yipper said:
You only need a couple of A-Levels and average fitness, so it's not particularly testing to get in the door. Most commercial flying, nowadays, is done by computer from start to stop, so you're mostly paid to sit in the front of the plane and eat food from a plastic tray while trying to persuade cabin crew to get their t*ts out. Having said all that, pilots die fairly young, as crossing timezones and breathing jetfuel / cabin fumes eventually take their toll. And pilotless planes are on the horizon (they are just big drones). So, becoming a commercial pilot is not a career decision to be taken lightly.
I take it you aren't a commercial pilot then.... 
5150 said:
Commercial flying isn't really flying these days. It's an exercise in arse-covering. If you want to fly, then get a PPL. I spent an hour yesterday, in a microlight doing circuits on my own. Great fun.
Presuming that by commercial flying you mean airliners. Would it be possible in principle for people to learn to fly a modern airliner through classrooms and simulators, without spending hundreds if hours in a light piston practising handling skills? Dr Jekyll said:
Presuming that by commercial flying you mean airliners. Would it be possible in principle for people to learn to fly a modern airliner through classrooms and simulators, without spending hundreds if hours in a light piston practising handling skills?
Yes it's called MPL. Still as expensive and at the end you don't have license to fly anything except the aircraft you do the type rating on.Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
(Yes)
They do, these days. A lot of cadets coming through the sausage factories that produce commercial pilots, are coming out with a MPL - which is airline-specific training that is a cut-down version from the traditional path to a commercial licence. There's arguments on both sides as to whether this is a better way to do things; Is it a cost-saving exercise for the airlines? Most definitely! I've flown with cadet First Officers with a couple of hundred hours in their log books, and they are generally good all-round operators, so in fairness, I can't fault what is a tried and tested system. I think Joe Public may have a different view / expectation of what their pilot's experience levels may be, but cadet pilot's have been around for years, albeit trained to a model that has changed somewhat over the years.
They do, these days. A lot of cadets coming through the sausage factories that produce commercial pilots, are coming out with a MPL - which is airline-specific training that is a cut-down version from the traditional path to a commercial licence. There's arguments on both sides as to whether this is a better way to do things; Is it a cost-saving exercise for the airlines? Most definitely! I've flown with cadet First Officers with a couple of hundred hours in their log books, and they are generally good all-round operators, so in fairness, I can't fault what is a tried and tested system. I think Joe Public may have a different view / expectation of what their pilot's experience levels may be, but cadet pilot's have been around for years, albeit trained to a model that has changed somewhat over the years.
Kempus said:
Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
Everyone's different. I do long haul and work around 500 hours a year. I get loads of time off. I wouldn't want to go back to that kind of flying ever, I find it much easier, less fatiguing and better paid doing a few easy trips a month and have much more quality time with my family than I ever did doing short haul. I find having some short time away from my family each month makes me miss them and I always look forward to seeing them when I get home. It certainly helps keep my relationship fresh. Obviously there are potential problems to be aware of and it won't work for everone, Friends of mine are like you though and think short haul is much better as they get home each day. If you only go into work 3 times a month, you can live pretty much anywhere in the country. I have many colleagues based in the UK who are living abroad.. It's really cushy. I'm 'at work' now, sitting by the pool in the Far East. meeting my colleagues at happy hour to go out shortly. Most people have a can do attitude, it's a great environment to work in. Loads of people are ilike me and nto fitness training. You can train in warm climates running on beaches and swimming in the warm sea instead of in endless winter rain and drizzle. Most want to go out at night and visit places. I've got a free day tomorrow where I'll wake up, go for a run on the beach and a swim then we'll all meet at happy hour. When I get home I've got 4 days off then off for a little trip abroad again.
As to the OPs question, whether you believe you can do it, depends mainly on your confidence. I think it's not hard to pass all the exams I certainly know loads of pilots who didn't make it all the way through to the end. It's not hard but you have to be motivated. There can't be many careers where people are investing all that time and money into qualifications without (in most cases) a guarantee of a job in the end. I know I've certainly had numerous moments in my career where I've wondered if I'd make it through what I'm doing, there are others that have plenty of confidence and seem to sail through everything,
It's not a job you fall into really, I still love going to work and it gives me a great work life balance. I would certainly recommend it to anyone interested. Obviously these threads will be full of people telling you it's not great but not from many who actually do it. My airline has loads of people who have come from other careers and decided to become pilots. I don't know of anyone who has left to do something else, unless they lost their medical. Even then they end up doing ground based simulator work or something else similar. Even today on my flight, I met a great old guy who used to work for my airline, he retired years ago and now runs a simulator training company for a hobby.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 18th February 11:03
Kempus said:
Yes it's called MPL. Still as expensive and at the end you don't have license to fly anything except the aircraft you do the type rating on.
Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
Interesting. As much as I love being home every night I would have thought it would be much easier working long haul. Surely you do fewer hours and spend a significant amount of time in much more exotic places than you do with short haul? Having chatted to a BA 787 captain, Virgin 787 FO and a Ryanair captain in the last month or two the work life of the BA captain sounded best to me. In a close second was the Virgin FO, the only negative was the limited number of destinations virgin fly to in their 787's. Short haul surely feels like an exhausting shift at the sausage factory? I understand if you have a family being sat in the same hotel in Antigua for the hundreth time is not ideal but if you're childless the mrs can always tag along.Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
djc206 said:
Kempus said:
Yes it's called MPL. Still as expensive and at the end you don't have license to fly anything except the aircraft you do the type rating on.
Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
Interesting. As much as I love being home every night I would have thought it would be much easier working long haul. Surely you do fewer hours and spend a significant amount of time in much more exotic places than you do with short haul? Having chatted to a BA 787 captain, Virgin 787 FO and a Ryanair captain in the last month or two the work life of the BA captain sounded best to me. In a close second was the Virgin FO, the only negative was the limited number of destinations virgin fly to in their 787's. Short haul surely feels like an exhausting shift at the sausage factory? I understand if you have a family being sat in the same hotel in Antigua for the hundreth time is not ideal but if you're childless the mrs can always tag along.Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
Most airlines have some kind of bidding system for long haul so the single (or married) shaggers and cockpit Casanovas can go on the long trips and the family guys and girls might bid for the shorter ones,
The airlines with all the fatigue issues are the low cost short haul ones
El stovey said:
That's my experience. Long haul usually also gives you bigger groups of days off when you are home. I actually have better quality time with my children doing longhaul than I did doing short haul where, I might have been at home but was doing a run of flights and tired in between them.
Most airlines have some kind of bidding system for long haul so the single (or married) shaggers and cockpit Casanovas can go on the long trips and the family guys and girls might bid for the shorter ones,
The airlines with all the fatigue issues are the low cost short haul ones
Has anyone ever actually bid for Lagos? Or is it the junior folks that get lumbered with it?Most airlines have some kind of bidding system for long haul so the single (or married) shaggers and cockpit Casanovas can go on the long trips and the family guys and girls might bid for the shorter ones,
The airlines with all the fatigue issues are the low cost short haul ones
I read an interesting article recently about fatigue at Emirates but yeah I'm in no doubt that short haul would be worse by and large. I guess Emirates want to get their money's worth! When the budget crowd flock back at 10-11pm at night I can hear it in their voices, knackered.
djc206 said:
El stovey said:
That's my experience. Long haul usually also gives you bigger groups of days off when you are home. I actually have better quality time with my children doing longhaul than I did doing short haul where, I might have been at home but was doing a run of flights and tired in between them.
Most airlines have some kind of bidding system for long haul so the single (or married) shaggers and cockpit Casanovas can go on the long trips and the family guys and girls might bid for the shorter ones,
The airlines with all the fatigue issues are the low cost short haul ones
Has anyone ever actually bid for Lagos? Or is it the junior folks that get lumbered with it?Most airlines have some kind of bidding system for long haul so the single (or married) shaggers and cockpit Casanovas can go on the long trips and the family guys and girls might bid for the shorter ones,
The airlines with all the fatigue issues are the low cost short haul ones
I read an interesting article recently about fatigue at Emirates but yeah I'm in no doubt that short haul would be worse by and large. I guess Emirates want to get their money's worth! When the budget crowd flock back at 10-11pm at night I can hear it in their voices, knackered.
I think emirates have fatigue issues as they seeem to go to work at funny times (depending on fleets) to meet the east west bomber streams into Europe and the states. I have a few friends who work there and I think it's quite hard work. UK long haul tends to arrive and depart at reasonable times. Eastbound and Africa flights can be in the evening though but I think Emirates have quite a few flights leaving Dubai in the middle of the night,
djc206 said:
Has anyone ever actually bid for Lagos? Or is it the junior folks that get lumbered with it?
I read an interesting article recently about fatigue at Emirates but yeah I'm in no doubt that short haul would be worse by and large. I guess Emirates want to get their money's worth! When the budget crowd flock back at 10-11pm at night I can hear it in their voices, knackered.
Lagos is only +1 on the UK at the moment which has benefits for long haul back-to-back trip combinations after the EASA rule set came into affect: good for commuters who want to bunch their work together. Every time I think I've found a trip that's universally hated I come across people who love if for their own reasons. That's why a diverse route structure works so well on long haul and, if your currency is just weekends off, then any destination Mon-Thurs/Fri is great.I read an interesting article recently about fatigue at Emirates but yeah I'm in no doubt that short haul would be worse by and large. I guess Emirates want to get their money's worth! When the budget crowd flock back at 10-11pm at night I can hear it in their voices, knackered.
Lost of rumours floating around about Emirates post the 777 accident. I'm not sure what's true and it's almost impossible to substantiate. I've read that they're changing their command structure and introducing an age limit (35?); there have been demotions based on that; the A380s are parked up in significant numbers around Dubai airport and are systematically towed around to make it look like they're in use. I think that the increase in the level of fatigue amongst the ME3 is fairly well established now. In my opinion, when you take an set of flight time limitations with a proven foundation in science and then increase them by 10-30% to give you a competitive advantage, something has to give.
A huge dose of self-interest here:
http://e4fc.eu/
That was all totally off-topic so:
Becoming a pilot is the same as any other area where a reasonably high level of achievement is required: hard work beats talent every time. The same applies to almost all occupations including sports in my experience. If you want it enough and you have an average level of ability you can get to where you want to be through hard work.
Edited by pushthebutton on Saturday 18th February 12:49
Kempus said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Presuming that by commercial flying you mean airliners. Would it be possible in principle for people to learn to fly a modern airliner through classrooms and simulators, without spending hundreds if hours in a light piston practising handling skills?
Yes it's called MPL. Still as expensive and at the end you don't have license to fly anything except the aircraft you do the type rating on.Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
An MPL is not learning to fly without real flying. It involves about 50 hours less than a CPL/IR, which is significant when you have only that many in your logbook. A few hundred sectors down the line though, I reckon that that significance wanes. The vast proportion of that 50 hours difference is solo time. One argument would be that this is the most valuable time when you're learning to fly, as all the decisions are yours. However, this depends on the person as well. I have heard of people literally flying in circles in the local area to burn up solo time rather than doing something useful with it. Personally I had a PPL and an MEP long before I started an integrated course, so it was more important that I got an airline to pick me before I spent any money, rather than spend the money and cross my fingers.
Just because the simulator isn't real world doesn't mean it isn't valuable. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, I'm just saying that there's no reason for you to say that.
(I'm not sure what money there used to be in European short haul, but unless your friends are all managing distressed debt, the money is what most people would call decent at a lot of places.)
I have a Kiwi friend in the Philippines, who is a private jet pilot. I knew he must be earning some decent cabbage, but US$3000 a DAY kinda blew me away. He is guaranteed at least 15 days work a month, but often does more, trips from Manila to South America for his business boss last a week.
I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
El stovey said:
Kempus said:
Short haul European outfit where you are home every night is the job to be in in my opinion. Shame the money isn't there anymore.
Everyone's different. I do long haul and work around 500 hours a year. I get loads of time off. I wouldn't want to go back to that kind of flying ever, I find it much easier, less fatiguing and better paid doing a few easy trips a month and have much more quality time with my family than I ever did doing short haul. I find having some short time away from my family each month makes me miss them and I always look forward to seeing them when I get home. It certainly helps keep my relationship fresh. Obviously there are potential problems to be aware of and it won't work for everone, Friends of mine are like you though and think short haul is much better as they get home each day. If you only go into work 3 times a month, you can live pretty much anywhere in the country. I have many colleagues based in the UK who are living abroad.. It's really cushy. I'm 'at work' now, sitting by the pool in the Far East. meeting my colleagues at happy hour to go out shortly. Most people have a can do attitude, it's a great environment to work in. Loads of people are ilike me and nto fitness training. You can train in warm climates running on beaches and swimming in the warm sea instead of in endless winter rain and drizzle. Most want to go out at night and visit places. I've got a free day tomorrow where I'll wake up, go for a run on the beach and a swim then we'll all meet at happy hour. When I get home I've got 4 days off then off for a little trip abroad again.
As to the OPs question, whether you believe you can do it, depends mainly on your confidence. I think it's not hard to pass all the exams I certainly know loads of pilots who didn't make it all the way through to the end. It's not hard but you have to be motivated. There can't be many careers where people are investing all that time and money into qualifications without (in most cases) a guarantee of a job in the end. I know I've certainly had numerous moments in my career where I've wondered if I'd make it through what I'm doing, there are others that have plenty of confidence and seem to sail through everything,
It's not a job you fall into really, I still love going to work and it gives me a great work life balance. I would certainly recommend it to anyone interested. Obviously these threads will be full of people telling you it's not great but not from many who actually do it. My airline has loads of people who have come from other careers and decided to become pilots. I don't know of anyone who has left to do something else, unless they lost their medical. Even then they end up doing ground based simulator work or something else similar. Even today on my flight, I met a great old guy who used to work for my airline, he retired years ago and now runs a simulator training company for a hobby.
Edited by El stovey on Saturday 18th February 11:03
As for the OP, the licence and exams are not the difficult bit. The hard bit is finding a job, getting the type rating, finding the cash to fund it all. I think the cadets I sit next to are in debt to about £120k-£150k depending on type rating. They earn about £1200-£1500 take home and pay out about £700-£800 a month in loans. The flip side is that as a Captain in our airline your on about £120K with overtime and allowances.
I love every minute of my job, and not succeeding didn't enter my head!
King Herald said:
I have a Kiwi friend in the Philippines, who is a private jet pilot. I knew he must be earning some decent cabbage, but US$3000 a DAY kinda blew me away. He is guaranteed at least 15 days work a month, but often does more, trips from Manila to South America for his business boss last a week.
I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
That's way above normal I believe. Netjets captains get about $150k/yr I think. Your friend has a very generous boss.I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
djc206 said:
King Herald said:
I have a Kiwi friend in the Philippines, who is a private jet pilot. I knew he must be earning some decent cabbage, but US$3000 a DAY kinda blew me away. He is guaranteed at least 15 days work a month, but often does more, trips from Manila to South America for his business boss last a week.
I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
That's way above normal I believe. Netjets captains get about $150k/yr I think. Your friend has a very generous boss.I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
I think the comments about the flying not being real flying just don't add up. Here's some real flying:
https://youtu.be/lteL18wd15Y
Buccaneers flying at wave top level in practice against HMS Liverpool - Amazing - I'm completely jealous and wish I'd succeeded in becoming a fighter pilot. In comparison the most exciting flying I do is landing or importantly choosing not to land a 391t jet at 150mph on a wet and windy day with 500 souls on board who are all important. The ten hours in between are normally mundane exercises in contingency planning and monitoring automatic systems. Its still flying, its still fun and its still a serious exercise that makes me glad every day that having worked my balls off to get here, the job is easier than the training!
However, having learnt via this thread that my chosen career both sucks and blows, fails to excite, will shorten my life and basically make me wish I'd found a nice office where the view out the window doesn't change... I'm concerned I may feel depressed on my next trip to work, so I've just booked the Mustang/Camaro convertible hire car for my next 48 hour LAX stopover as Mrs B is coming with me. I'll let you know if I'm still having doubts as we burble along Mulholland Drive roof down for sunrise across the basin.
https://youtu.be/lteL18wd15Y
Buccaneers flying at wave top level in practice against HMS Liverpool - Amazing - I'm completely jealous and wish I'd succeeded in becoming a fighter pilot. In comparison the most exciting flying I do is landing or importantly choosing not to land a 391t jet at 150mph on a wet and windy day with 500 souls on board who are all important. The ten hours in between are normally mundane exercises in contingency planning and monitoring automatic systems. Its still flying, its still fun and its still a serious exercise that makes me glad every day that having worked my balls off to get here, the job is easier than the training!
However, having learnt via this thread that my chosen career both sucks and blows, fails to excite, will shorten my life and basically make me wish I'd found a nice office where the view out the window doesn't change... I'm concerned I may feel depressed on my next trip to work, so I've just booked the Mustang/Camaro convertible hire car for my next 48 hour LAX stopover as Mrs B is coming with me. I'll let you know if I'm still having doubts as we burble along Mulholland Drive roof down for sunrise across the basin.
Edited by brenflys777 on Saturday 18th February 21:02
jonnyb said:
As for the OP, the licence and exams are not the difficult bit. The hard bit is finding a job, getting the type rating, finding the cash to fund it all. I think the cadets I sit next to are in debt to about £120k-£150k depending on type rating. They earn about £1200-£1500 take home and pay out about £700-£800 a month in loans. The flip side is that as a Captain in our airline your on about £120K with overtime and allowances.
I love every minute of my job, and not succeeding didn't enter my head!
When I was young enough for it to be a theoretical option. You got a PPL, scrimped to afford 100 hours, then got a bank loan for an instructors course so you could get to 700 hours and do a CPL test. Then somehow find the time for exams and money for ATPL exams, multi rating and instrument rating. Seemed daunting at the time but a piece of cake compared with nowadays.I love every minute of my job, and not succeeding didn't enter my head!
I didn't try because frankly the notion of not failing didn't enter my head.
El stovey said:
djc206 said:
King Herald said:
I have a Kiwi friend in the Philippines, who is a private jet pilot. I knew he must be earning some decent cabbage, but US$3000 a DAY kinda blew me away. He is guaranteed at least 15 days work a month, but often does more, trips from Manila to South America for his business boss last a week.
I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
That's way above normal I believe. Netjets captains get about $150k/yr I think. Your friend has a very generous boss.I always wanted to be a pilot, but failed miserably at school......
Yipper said:
You only need a couple of A-Levels and average fitness, so it's not particularly testing to get in the door. Most commercial flying, nowadays, is done by computer from start to stop, so you're mostly paid to sit in the front of the plane and eat food from a plastic tray while trying to persuade cabin crew to get their t*ts out. Having said all that, pilots die fairly young, as crossing timezones and breathing jetfuel / cabin fumes eventually take their toll. And pilotless planes are on the horizon (they are just big drones). So, becoming a commercial pilot is not a career decision to be taken lightly.
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