One for the Dinghy Sailors

[rustyspit]

The trouble with a loose kicker upwind in a reasonable breeze is that unless you're able to grind down on the mainsheet you won't have enough leech tension to help you point close to the wind.

I'm not saying it won't work without the kicker, or that you won't be travelling at high speed, but you might find you get to the top mark sooner with a bit more kicker on

[Schmalex]

rustyspit said:

The trouble with a loose kicker upwind in a reasonable breeze is that unless you're able to grind down on the mainsheet you won't have enough leech tension to help you point close to the wind.

I'm not saying it won't work without the kicker, or that you won't be travelling at high speed, but you might find you get to the top mark sooner with a bit more kicker on

100% agreed. The acknoweldged way of getting height with speed (ie the best vmg) upwind in a breeze is to "drive off the leach" of the main.

[Snoggledog]

Er what's the jib for then? I seem to recal it having something to do with helping a boat to point.

[XJSJohn]

Snoggledog said:

Works well enough on my int 14.

inbetween the moments when the boat tries to rip your teeth out

[Schmalex]

Snoggledog said:

Er what's the jib for then? I seem to recal it having something to do with helping a boat to point.

The jib & the main work in tandem to help the boat point. The Kutta Effect (the acceleration of flow & lift through the slot) is what actually drives the boat to point & retain speed.

Yes, a correctly sheeted & trimmed jib is absolutely essential, but the real crux is the relationship between the 2 sails. Slot too closed = slow but high. Slot too open = fast but low.

[rustyspit]

As well as acting as a sail in it's own right, the jib helps to accelerate and redirect air around the leeward side of the mainsail - increasing the efficiency of the mainsail. I think it also helps to promote attached flow, but that is where my amateur aerodynamics knowledge runs out. If you're interested in the whys and wherefores I'd recommend Frank Bethwaite's book 'High Performance Sailing'.

ETA - you beat me to it.

Edited by rustyspit on Wednesday 11th July 11:52

[Snoggledog]

Schmalex said:

Snoggledog said:

Er what's the jib for then? I seem to recal it having something to do with helping a boat to point.

The jib & the main work in tandem to help the boat point. The Kutta Effect (the acceleration of flow & lift through the slot) is what actually drives the boat to point & retain speed.

Yes, a correctly sheeted & trimmed jib is absolutely essential, but the real crux is the relationship between the 2 sails. Slot too closed = slow but high. Slot too open = fast but low.

Yep that's true but the kicker has almost zero effect on the slot as it mainly controls the top of the mast. So slot is controlled (in the main) by main outhall and jib positioning / sheeting abilities of crew. So the kicker can do whatever it wants. On or off in blow to suit the text book or the experience.

[Schmalex]

Snoggledog said:

Schmalex said:

Snoggledog said:

Er what's the jib for then? I seem to recal it having something to do with helping a boat to point.

The jib & the main work in tandem to help the boat point. The Kutta Effect (the acceleration of flow & lift through the slot) is what actually drives the boat to point & retain speed.

Yes, a correctly sheeted & trimmed jib is absolutely essential, but the real crux is the relationship between the 2 sails. Slot too closed = slow but high. Slot too open = fast but low.

Yep that's true but the kicker has almost zero effect on the slot as it mainly controls the top of the mast. So slot is controlled (in the main) by main outhall and jib positioning / sheeting abilities of crew. So the kicker can do whatever it wants. On or off in blow to suit the text book or the experience.

Hmm. Without enough kicker on, the main ends up twisting off too much, looking like a bag of shite & closing the slot. I refer the learned gentleman to my previous post...

I race yachts, so we have the benefit of instruments to fine tune boatspeed / vmg etc, so it is a little easier.

You race a 14 - I always wanted to have a blast in one. They look brilliant fun (I used to race a Cherub when I was younger & more supple!!)

[Snoggledog]

I think I see where the problem lies. My take on this goes something like this..

On yachts you tend to have higher mounted jibs (in some cases mast head mounted) In cases such as these you need to view all controls, kicker, cunningham, outhall and jib position as all having a significant effect on both the main and the jib. In cases such as these your comments are eminently true and practical.

But with a dinghy, as the jib is not mast head mounted the rules change slightly and you need to view things in sections. What's happening up top and what's happening at the bottom is generally the best way of looking at it. Hence why the kicker has a very negligible effect on the jib and why I'm happy to sail upwind with a bag.

Point worth noting is that I'm a river sailor. So upwind (pointing) progress is hugely more important to me than any other point of sail as that's where I gain the most ground.

ETA.. The coanda effect makes interesting reading.

Edited by Snoggledog on Wednesday 11th July 12:29

[tank slapper]

Snoggledog said:

On yachts you tend to have higher mounted jibs (in some cases mast head mounted) In cases such as these you need to view all controls, kicker, cunningham, outhall and jib position as all having a significant effect on both the main and the jib. In cases such as these your comments are eminently true and practical.

I think it depends on what sail you are using. eg, on our boat which is masthead rigged, the genoa is much bigger than the main and is much more powerful. The function of the main is more to do with trim than providing forward drive. You can sail almost as fast with only the genoa up as you can with both at most points of sail.

[rustyspit]

If you're a river sailor then I suspect that acceleration out of a tack may also be very important, which is perhaps why you like a mainsail with a lot of twist? Generally speaking a full, twisted sail will give you lots of power and acceleration at the expense of top speed and pointing, whereas a flatter sail with a tighter leech will point higher with less drag but take longer to accelerate. Of course nothing is ever that simple, particularly with modern flexible skiff rigs, but you get the idea.

What sort of I14 are you sailing? I've got a crazy picture in my head of one of these trying to sail up the Thames:

[Snoggledog]

That has been done believe it or not. Sadly though I sail what's known as a 'Classic' 14 rather than one of the high tech, go faster lumps of plastic.

Trying to find a picture but failing miserably so I'll upload something onto photobucket this evening.

In short the class is sort of split as follows..

Ultimates - Current rules. So twin wire, unlimited spinaker, very light, T- foils.
Penultimate - Conforms to 1983 - 1989(?) (or maybe 1993. I can't remember) rules. Twin wire, asymmetrical kite and a little lardy.
Classics - Conforms to pre 1982 rules. Single wire. Symetrical kite. 225 lbs worth of fat.
Vintage - Beautiful, graceful wooden boats built usually by Uffa Fox. Built up to around 1948 (ish) when the classic rules took over.

I currently have a classic and a vintage in need of some restoration.

Occasionally I get to have a go on a Thames A-Rater too.

[Nic Jones]

My sister is at the B14 worlds this week, a pic of them sailing Sunday...


Umm... answers on a postcard! Think she might be scared of water



And some of us in the RS200

Absoinglutely flying!

http://fotoboat.thirdlight.com/viewpicture.tlx?alb...

Oops, overcooked it a bit

http://fotoboat.thirdlight.com/viewpicture.tlx?alb...

Bit different to the pipe and slippers sailing!

Edited by Nic Jones on Wednesday 11th July 15:49

[toxic frog]

i was considering buying a penultimate 14 with a colleague of mine so we could go out for a blast when we couldn't bring together a large enough crew for the yacht,,, everyone we know who sailed 14's advised against it... apparently they break..................... lots

having not sailed a dinghy for over 10yrs, i decided to have a crack at sailing a RS600 up at Datchet a couple of months back... it was blowing about 20 knots and i managed to go the sum total of about 10 metres upright... the rest of the time i was capsized... talk about a boat with bugger all stability... i haven't a clue how one of my other colleagues handles his RS700...

I managed to break a rib whilst trying to sail the RS600, so I'm now thinking about simply buying a laser for those odd occasios i fancy a blast out into the solent.

I'm definitely getting old... I never used to have any problems sailing Norfolk Punts back in the day

[Snoggledog]

toxic frog said:

i was considering buying a penultimate 14 with a colleague of mine so we could go out for a blast when we couldn't bring together a large enough crew for the yacht,,, everyone we know who sailed 14's advised against it... apparently they break..................... lots

having not sailed a dinghy for over 10yrs, i decided to have a crack at sailing a RS600 up at Datchet a couple of months back... it was blowing about 20 knots and i managed to go the sum total of about 10 metres upright... the rest of the time i was capsized... talk about a boat with bugger all stability... i haven't a clue how one of my other colleagues handles his RS700...

I managed to break a rib whilst trying to sail the RS600, so I'm now thinking about simply buying a laser for those odd occasios i fancy a blast out into the solent.

I'm definitely getting old... I never used to have any problems sailing Norfolk Punts back in the day

Pennies are normally fairly solid. The trick is to avoid modified ones. If you are really interested then drop me a note and I'll see if I can source something for you or at least put you in touch with the right people. 2-3k should see you getting a very good example.

[rustyspit]

toxic frog said:

having not sailed a dinghy for over 10yrs, i decided to have a crack at sailing a RS600 up at Datchet a couple of months back... it was blowing about 20 knots and i managed to go the sum total of about 10 metres upright... the rest of the time i was capsized... talk about a boat with bugger all stability... i haven't a clue how one of my other colleagues handles his RS700...

I'm not surprised you found the 600 a bit tricky. In some ways the 700 is actually quite a bit easier to sail - the hull shape is much more stable than the marine balancing-act that is the 600 and the rig is softer and less like an on/off switch!

Edited by rustyspit on Wednesday 11th July 17:24

[toxic frog]

what does the collective think of 505's?... i know they are a bit old-school, but i find it hard to keep up to date with all these new-fangled skiff thingies... bailed out of dinghies just as the RS-boats were starting to come out...

[Nic Jones]

I like 505's they always look like a real blast, don't ever really see many of them about though, I'm not sure why they're not so popular, maybe competing against 470's, Ospreys and Hornets doesn't help a lot.

[Schmalex]

50's are awesome pieces of kit. Personally, if I were to get back into dinghies, I would probably go either the skiff type (RSnn etc)route or Int 14

[sawman]

Snoggledog said:

Schmalex said:

Get as much kicker on as you can & then more. Then, you can control the power by easing or bringing on the mainsheet as required.

Just before you get to the top mark, don't forget to ease an inch or so of kicker and a bit of outhall & cunningham. A dead flat main is not quick downwind + you could end up snapping the boom on the bear away!!

Kicker off upwind in a blow as this will allow the top to 'open' and spill. Then kicker back on downwind to avoid the boom from lifting.

I've tried both methods (tight in upwind and slightly loose downwind. And slack upwind and slightly loose downwind.) The easiest to control upwind is a slack kicker as any gusts just get spilled out of the top of the sail.

I can see this one getting into an argument.

it depends a lot on the cut of the sail, the ent sail is pretty roachy, and so needs a fair bit of kicker to flatten it a bit otherwise as soon as you let out an armful of sheet in a gust, it simply powers up (just when you dont want it to).

now as to whether you need reefing points on an ent it depends on what you use it for, if you just pootle about why not have reefs if you dont want to work hard? not sure I;d bother myself, although I have sailed an ent with cruising sail at the southport 24 hr race - but it was the middle of the night and blowing old socks!