Discussion
yellowjack said:
Interesting. The 100 ft AGL bit she could probably manage OK, even on the eve of her retirement. But Mach 2 is comfortably in excess of twice the old girl's rated maximum airspeed.
From Wikipedia (so apologies if not entirely accurate):
Not quite the same thing but in MS Flight Sim X if you exceed speed close to mach 1 the aircraft pitches down and is unrecoverable on the stick too.From Wikipedia (so apologies if not entirely accurate):
Wiki Avro Vulcan entry said:
In 1957, a Vulcan B.1 XA892 attached to the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) at Boscombe Down for acceptance testing was unintentionally flown to an Indicated Mach Number (IMN) above 1.04, alarming the crew that it had reached supersonic speed. XA892's commander, Flt Lt Milt Cottee (RAAF), and co-pilot, Flt Lt Ray Bray (RAF), were tasked to fly at 478 mph (769 km/h) and 0.98 IMN, taking the aircraft to a load factor of 3 g. It climbed to 35,000 ft (11,000 m) and then dived, intending to reach the target speed at 27,000 ft (8,200 m). Approaching the target altitude, the throttles were closed and full up-elevator applied, but XA892 continued to pitch nose-down. Cottee contemplated pushing forward to go inverted and then rolling upright; instead, he opened the speed brakes. Although the airspeed was above their maximum operating speed, the speed brakes were undamaged and did slow the aircraft, which came back past the vertical at about 18,000 ft (5,500 m) and leveled off at 8,000 ft (2,400 m). There were no reports of a sonic boom, it is unlikely a true Mach Number of 1.0 was reached. Afterwards, a rear bulkhead was found to be deformed.
yellowjack said:
2fast748 said:
sa_20v said:
Dumb question but will she just fly over the designated points or can we expect some sort of display? I'm hoping she'll arrive inverted... 
Ha!I'd like to see her come in at Mach 2, at about 100 feet!
From Wikipedia (so apologies if not entirely accurate):
Wiki Avro Vulcan entry said:
In 1957, a Vulcan B.1 XA892 attached to the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) at Boscombe Down for acceptance testing was unintentionally flown to an Indicated Mach Number (IMN) above 1.04, alarming the crew that it had reached supersonic speed. XA892's commander, Flt Lt Milt Cottee (RAAF), and co-pilot, Flt Lt Ray Bray (RAF), were tasked to fly at 478 mph (769 km/h) and 0.98 IMN, taking the aircraft to a load factor of 3 g. It climbed to 35,000 ft (11,000 m) and then dived, intending to reach the target speed at 27,000 ft (8,200 m). Approaching the target altitude, the throttles were closed and full up-elevator applied, but XA892 continued to pitch nose-down. Cottee contemplated pushing forward to go inverted and then rolling upright; instead, he opened the speed brakes. Although the airspeed was above their maximum operating speed, the speed brakes were undamaged and did slow the aircraft, which came back past the vertical at about 18,000 ft (5,500 m) and leveled off at 8,000 ft (2,400 m). There were no reports of a sonic boom, it is unlikely a true Mach Number of 1.0 was reached. Afterwards, a rear bulkhead was found to be deformed.
FourWheelDrift said:
Not quite the same thing but in MS Flight Sim X if you exceed speed close to mach 1 the aircraft pitches down and is unrecoverable on the stick too.
Quite accurate on real life... You probably need to actually push forward to bring the nose up!wiki said:
While exploring the high speed and high altitude flight envelope, mild buffeting and other undesirable flight characteristics were experienced while approaching the speed of sound, including an alarming tendency to enter an uncontrollable dive, unacceptable to the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) at Boscombe Down. The solution included the "Phase 2" wing, featuring a kinked and drooped leading edge and vortex generators on the upper surface, first tested on 707A WD480. An auto-mach trimmer introduced a nose-up attitude when at high speeds, the control column had to be pushed rather than pulled to maintain level flight
marksx said:
Yes, Tony Blackman's book 'Vulcan Test Pilot' describes this and the design of the mach trimmer.
Without it as the speed increases, back pressure on the stick is required to hold the nose up, to a point where full elevator travel is reached and you are in an unrecoverable dive.
Where as with the mach trimmer the Vulcan gets to full up elevator anyway, but the stick remains in the 'right' place & you have to push forwards as per a normal aircraft.Without it as the speed increases, back pressure on the stick is required to hold the nose up, to a point where full elevator travel is reached and you are in an unrecoverable dive.
marksx said:
Gretchen said:
Flight paths for Saturday and Sunday have been released. Timings out in Friday for those still wanting to see her fly past. Plus more at the end of the month.
Where are they available? None of the links work on the VTTS website.https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zJoGZd3-Q...
Sunday Southern Tour
http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/m/SztepUm6zqwVFGX7j4sy9x...
Both afternoon flights.
Gretchen said:
Saturday Northern Tour
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zJoGZd3-Q...
Sunday Southern Tour
http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/m/SztepUm6zqwVFGX7j4sy9x...
Both afternoon flights.
Thanks!https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zJoGZd3-Q...
Sunday Southern Tour
http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/m/SztepUm6zqwVFGX7j4sy9x...
Both afternoon flights.
I see a strip out on the motorbike to the middle of nowhere coming up.
Interesting that the major waypoints are airports, many of them commercial with no easy viewing (my locals are Bristol and Cardiff) that will be massive pinch points.
No idea how it would have been to organise but I would have thought large public spaces would make far more sense, our local park has clear markers from the air, thousands of car parking spaces and good transport links, for example.
No idea how it would have been to organise but I would have thought large public spaces would make far more sense, our local park has clear markers from the air, thousands of car parking spaces and good transport links, for example.
marksx said:
Thanks!
I see a strip out on the motorbike to the middle of nowhere coming up.
Are the lines between the waypoints likely to be vaguely accurate (i.e. would many things stop them from straight lining from one waypoint to another?)I see a strip out on the motorbike to the middle of nowhere coming up.
I'm plum between the 50 or so mile stint between Salisbury and Bristol and right on the line, it seems silly to try and get to Bristol Airport with everyone else if it's likely to fly directly over the countryside just to the west of us as indicated on the map.
From the email...
"
View Online Version | Donate
NATIONAL TOUR - OCTOBER 10th and 11th
WITH FURTHER FLIGHTS PLANNED THROUGH OCTOBER
XH558 seen over the fields of England earlier this season. Caught by Geoffrey Lee - www.planefocus.com
Your chance to see XH558 around the country as she embarks on
perhaps her most comprehensive tour.
This coming weekend, XH558 will take-off on two large orbital tours of the country, visiting as many places as we can sensibly cover within the operational constraints and time we have available. With flight times expected to be over three and a half hours each day, we also have to consider the limits of fuel-load and of course, the comfort of our flight crews in very cramped and high workload conditions.
The routes are split into two sections:
NORTHERN ROUTE: - SATURDAY 10th OCTOBER.
SOUTHERN ROUTE: - SUNDAY 11th OCTOBER.
Please be aware that due to various permissions and agreements, the routes vary from those originally published over 10 days ago. We have also listened to public opinion to arrive at what we believe will be the best possible solution in light of all the restrictions placed upon us in operating XH558.
Although flight paths may vary once announced and XH558 is airborne, the turning points we reveal will be our intended destinations given favourable weather conditions.
PLEASE NOTE:
ROUTE GUIDES FOR EACH DAY ARE LOWER DOWN THIS DEDICATED NATIONAL TOUR NEWSLETTER.
DO NOTE BELOW – RESTRICTIONS APPLY AT OUR OPERATIONAL BASE.
VIEWING ANYWHERE NEAR ROBIN HOOD AIRPORT IS SEVERELY RESTRICTED
& PARKING RESTRICTIONS APPLY
As the final few flights approach, we must warn you that the chances of seeing XH558 take-off and land will be slim. There are no plans for any displays or repeated circuits over the airfield and the aircraft will come straight-in to land on her return.
The police and emergency services, local authority and the airport are very much aware of growing issues. There is great risk of severe restrictions being imposed on our flight operations if matters persist. We do need to minimise the risk of enforced flight cancellations on the grounds of public safety.
Police Supt Rollitt states: “Although I understand the passion of the supporters of the Vulcan, over the past few months as we approach its final flights, more and more spectators have turned up at events where the Vulcan has been. This has started to overwhelm local authorities and emergency services. My first priority is ensuring the safety of all road users and local communities. Doncaster airport is a small commercial airport that can accommodate its passengers, however the infrastructure around it cannot accommodate a large influx of people hoping to see the Vulcan. The Vulcan trust have worked with us to satisfy the safety issue by providing a flight timetable to ensure that members of the public will get see the final flights from other vantage points around the country.”
Caroline Rollitt, Superintendent
Joint Specialist Operations (Uniform)
South Yorkshire Police
We would request all our supporters try to view XH558 from another vantage point along the tour routes this weekend.
PLEASE DO NOT TRAVEL TO DONCASTER.
We would all obviously appreciate your co-operation on this matter. Thank you.
XH558 landed from her last flight 100% serviceable and we have no reason to suspect any issues this weekend, but of course, a thorough ‘Before Flight Service’ will be conducted by the ground team each morning.
The forecast weather is so far looking favourable, with a High Pressure system expected to be sitting to the west, which will hopefully bring settled weather over the whole weekend.
Should either factor be against us, we will obviously review the situation, and if possible, plan to fly other sectors over another weekend later this month.
ALL UPDATES WILL BE POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA, OUR WEB PAGES
(Latest news section) & THE XH558 APP.
We have put in extra resource to gives as much positional and timing information over social media on these tour dates. If you have had a natural aversion to social media before for whatever reason, then this is now the time to select the most convenient for you and sign-up so you can follow XH558. It will really be our only way of conveying the tour progress in a ‘live as it happens’ format.
Keep updated on the preparation and flights by following our social media.
If you have our iOS XH558 App, or the Android Tracker,
then do check you have the latest updates.
iOS App inc. Tracker available here
Android Tracker available here
Both systems have the XH558 tracking system as standard, and here is what last week’s route looked like.
All position reports will also be populated to a dedicated tour page on the website or you can see the Twitter feed on the homepage www.vulcantothesky.org
The timings that will be given at each location in the route guides will be the expected arrival times at each location (in minutes) from the time of take-off. We can say however for now, that both flights will be completed in the afternoons. These times will be updated to the maps as soon as we have them. Do save their direct location or this newsletter for later reference. You will also find them on our website from Friday evening.
PLEASE DO ENSURE YOU OPEN FRIDAY’S EDITION AS IT WILL CONTAIN VITAL ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON TIMINGS.
NORTHERN ROUTE: - SATURDAY 10th OCTOBER.
CLICK THE MAP & SCROLL (OR PINCH OUT & IN) FOR MORE DETAILS
Amongst the places being visited on this route:
Gainsborough, Brough, Menwith Hill, Leeming, Durham Tees Airport*, Newcastle Airport*, Eshott Airfield, Alnwick, East Fortune, Carlisle Airport, Bowness on Windermere, Warton, Chadderton, Manchester Airport*, Woodford, RAF Cosford, East Midlands Airport* and Derby.
SOUTHERN ROUTE: - SUNDAY 11th OCTOBER.
CLICK THE MAP & SCROLL (OR PINCH OUT & IN) FOR MORE DETAILS
Amongst the places being visited on this route:
RAF Waddington, Rutland Water, North Weald Airfield, Gravesend, Herne Bay, Manston, Dover, Ashford, Dunsfold, Farnborough, Middle Wallop, Old Sarum, Bristol Airport*, Filton, Cardiff Airport*, St. Athan, Staverton Glos Airport, RAF Brize Norton*, Wellesbourne, Bruntingthorpe and Newark.
• Please decide on the best waypoint location nearest to you.
• The crews will try their very best to pass directly over each main location.
• No guarantee of exact route following can be given due to operational conditions.
• The flight will consist of flypasts, orbits and level or climbing departures; no displays
• should be expected.
• Please park and view from safe locations. Keep all children and pets under your
• supervision.
• Please do not cause a nuisance to other road users or members of the public.
• Please do not trespass on private property or land, but wait and view from acceptable
• public places.
• Monitor our social media or tracking app to see where XH558 is in relation to you.
• Take plenty of provisions, especially water. Suitable warm clothing is advised for
• everyone.
We would appreciate your full co-operation please in keeping the name and reputation of Vulcan XH558 and her supporters in the high standing to which they are known. Thank you very much indeed.
ENJOY YOUR VIEWING!
Copyright © Vulcan To The Sky Trust 2015"
"
View Online Version | Donate
NATIONAL TOUR - OCTOBER 10th and 11th
WITH FURTHER FLIGHTS PLANNED THROUGH OCTOBER
XH558 seen over the fields of England earlier this season. Caught by Geoffrey Lee - www.planefocus.com
Your chance to see XH558 around the country as she embarks on
perhaps her most comprehensive tour.
This coming weekend, XH558 will take-off on two large orbital tours of the country, visiting as many places as we can sensibly cover within the operational constraints and time we have available. With flight times expected to be over three and a half hours each day, we also have to consider the limits of fuel-load and of course, the comfort of our flight crews in very cramped and high workload conditions.
The routes are split into two sections:
NORTHERN ROUTE: - SATURDAY 10th OCTOBER.
SOUTHERN ROUTE: - SUNDAY 11th OCTOBER.
Please be aware that due to various permissions and agreements, the routes vary from those originally published over 10 days ago. We have also listened to public opinion to arrive at what we believe will be the best possible solution in light of all the restrictions placed upon us in operating XH558.
Although flight paths may vary once announced and XH558 is airborne, the turning points we reveal will be our intended destinations given favourable weather conditions.
PLEASE NOTE:
- We intend at least two more flights in late October. **
- This weekend will not see XH558’s final landing. **
ROUTE GUIDES FOR EACH DAY ARE LOWER DOWN THIS DEDICATED NATIONAL TOUR NEWSLETTER.
DO NOTE BELOW – RESTRICTIONS APPLY AT OUR OPERATIONAL BASE.
VIEWING ANYWHERE NEAR ROBIN HOOD AIRPORT IS SEVERELY RESTRICTED
& PARKING RESTRICTIONS APPLY
As the final few flights approach, we must warn you that the chances of seeing XH558 take-off and land will be slim. There are no plans for any displays or repeated circuits over the airfield and the aircraft will come straight-in to land on her return.
The police and emergency services, local authority and the airport are very much aware of growing issues. There is great risk of severe restrictions being imposed on our flight operations if matters persist. We do need to minimise the risk of enforced flight cancellations on the grounds of public safety.
Police Supt Rollitt states: “Although I understand the passion of the supporters of the Vulcan, over the past few months as we approach its final flights, more and more spectators have turned up at events where the Vulcan has been. This has started to overwhelm local authorities and emergency services. My first priority is ensuring the safety of all road users and local communities. Doncaster airport is a small commercial airport that can accommodate its passengers, however the infrastructure around it cannot accommodate a large influx of people hoping to see the Vulcan. The Vulcan trust have worked with us to satisfy the safety issue by providing a flight timetable to ensure that members of the public will get see the final flights from other vantage points around the country.”
Caroline Rollitt, Superintendent
Joint Specialist Operations (Uniform)
South Yorkshire Police
We would request all our supporters try to view XH558 from another vantage point along the tour routes this weekend.
PLEASE DO NOT TRAVEL TO DONCASTER.
We would all obviously appreciate your co-operation on this matter. Thank you.
XH558 landed from her last flight 100% serviceable and we have no reason to suspect any issues this weekend, but of course, a thorough ‘Before Flight Service’ will be conducted by the ground team each morning.
The forecast weather is so far looking favourable, with a High Pressure system expected to be sitting to the west, which will hopefully bring settled weather over the whole weekend.
Should either factor be against us, we will obviously review the situation, and if possible, plan to fly other sectors over another weekend later this month.
ALL UPDATES WILL BE POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA, OUR WEB PAGES
(Latest news section) & THE XH558 APP.
We have put in extra resource to gives as much positional and timing information over social media on these tour dates. If you have had a natural aversion to social media before for whatever reason, then this is now the time to select the most convenient for you and sign-up so you can follow XH558. It will really be our only way of conveying the tour progress in a ‘live as it happens’ format.
Keep updated on the preparation and flights by following our social media.
If you have our iOS XH558 App, or the Android Tracker,
then do check you have the latest updates.
iOS App inc. Tracker available here
Android Tracker available here
Both systems have the XH558 tracking system as standard, and here is what last week’s route looked like.
All position reports will also be populated to a dedicated tour page on the website or you can see the Twitter feed on the homepage www.vulcantothesky.org
The timings that will be given at each location in the route guides will be the expected arrival times at each location (in minutes) from the time of take-off. We can say however for now, that both flights will be completed in the afternoons. These times will be updated to the maps as soon as we have them. Do save their direct location or this newsletter for later reference. You will also find them on our website from Friday evening.
PLEASE DO ENSURE YOU OPEN FRIDAY’S EDITION AS IT WILL CONTAIN VITAL ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON TIMINGS.
NORTHERN ROUTE: - SATURDAY 10th OCTOBER.
CLICK THE MAP & SCROLL (OR PINCH OUT & IN) FOR MORE DETAILS
Amongst the places being visited on this route:
Gainsborough, Brough, Menwith Hill, Leeming, Durham Tees Airport*, Newcastle Airport*, Eshott Airfield, Alnwick, East Fortune, Carlisle Airport, Bowness on Windermere, Warton, Chadderton, Manchester Airport*, Woodford, RAF Cosford, East Midlands Airport* and Derby.
SOUTHERN ROUTE: - SUNDAY 11th OCTOBER.
CLICK THE MAP & SCROLL (OR PINCH OUT & IN) FOR MORE DETAILS
Amongst the places being visited on this route:
RAF Waddington, Rutland Water, North Weald Airfield, Gravesend, Herne Bay, Manston, Dover, Ashford, Dunsfold, Farnborough, Middle Wallop, Old Sarum, Bristol Airport*, Filton, Cardiff Airport*, St. Athan, Staverton Glos Airport, RAF Brize Norton*, Wellesbourne, Bruntingthorpe and Newark.
- Passes at certain airports will be dependent on ATC clearances at the time of arrival.
• Please decide on the best waypoint location nearest to you.
• The crews will try their very best to pass directly over each main location.
• No guarantee of exact route following can be given due to operational conditions.
• The flight will consist of flypasts, orbits and level or climbing departures; no displays
• should be expected.
• Please park and view from safe locations. Keep all children and pets under your
• supervision.
• Please do not cause a nuisance to other road users or members of the public.
• Please do not trespass on private property or land, but wait and view from acceptable
• public places.
• Monitor our social media or tracking app to see where XH558 is in relation to you.
• Take plenty of provisions, especially water. Suitable warm clothing is advised for
• everyone.
We would appreciate your full co-operation please in keeping the name and reputation of Vulcan XH558 and her supporters in the high standing to which they are known. Thank you very much indeed.
ENJOY YOUR VIEWING!
Copyright © Vulcan To The Sky Trust 2015"
ukaskew said:
Are the lines between the waypoints likely to be vaguely accurate (i.e. would many things stop them from straight lining from one waypoint to another?)
I'm plum between the 50 or so mile stint between Salisbury and Bristol and right on the line, it seems silly to try and get to Bristol Airport with everyone else if it's likely to fly directly over the countryside just to the west of us as indicated on the map.
I wondered that too - on the route map it passes quite close to me, and there's plenty of places down country lanes where I reckon I can get a decent view. If I head for the nearest waypoint, I expect it might be quite crowded. I also wonder what height it will be at on the normal route sections.I'm plum between the 50 or so mile stint between Salisbury and Bristol and right on the line, it seems silly to try and get to Bristol Airport with everyone else if it's likely to fly directly over the countryside just to the west of us as indicated on the map.
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