Post amazingly cool pictures of aircraft (Volume 1)
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
If someone has enough evidence on the existence of Aurora to win a £20 bet, they probably have enough evidence to initiate enquiries into where they got that evidence by the CIA.
There have been lots of "black" projects over the decades since WW2. The "real" ones have all come to light - eventually. The spoof ones, well, they obviously never existed and so could never be formally revealed as there was nothing to reveal.
Anyone remember the furore over model makers Revell's relaese of their F-19 Stealth Fighter kit?
Eric, You made a very firm statement in your first post, categorically stating that the aircraft does not exist.There have been lots of "black" projects over the decades since WW2. The "real" ones have all come to light - eventually. The spoof ones, well, they obviously never existed and so could never be formally revealed as there was nothing to reveal.
Anyone remember the furore over model makers Revell's relaese of their F-19 Stealth Fighter kit?
I simply asked you a yes or no question, there was nothing else in my post that needed expanded on, questioned or attacked.
So, would you take a bet on that? Payable when the aircraft is announced. Or not, obviously.
I would suppose you made your claim of it's non existance also based on 'no evidence.' My reasons for believing it to be an extant project are my own. Some I would publish on an open source forum. One in particular, definitely not. If you have evidence that absolutely proves it's non existance, or even anecdotes to the same, your free to share, and I'd love to hear them.
On the last thread where we jointly posted, ref. helicopters and their reliability perception regards piston/turbine engines amongst the enthusiast/non flying community, I'm still waiting on your response to my statement, from a pilots point of view, about all the other things which can, and do, fail. Dynamic Rollover/LTE/Mast Bumping etc. have all claimed more lives than an engine stop according to the last 10 years statisitcs I have seen. Anyways, here's hoping you dont leave this one hanging as well.
Hows about it then? £20 to charity of winners choice/time limit 7 years to announcement as to whether that bird is out there or not
?
Redwing said:
Le TVR said:
Eric Mc said:
I've seen a painting of the event.
IIRC it used to hang in the crew room of 1 sqn RAF Cottesmore?In 1968 it was the RAF's 50th birthday, yet the top brass did not see fit to mark this with any flypast, choosing instead for mere parades on the ground. Many RAF personnel were less than impressed and one Flt Lt Alan Pollock of 1(F) Squadron decided to mark the occasion in style - first with toilet-roll bombing missions against rival squadrons, and then on April 5th, while suffering from the beginnings of pneumonia which no doubt had some affect on his decision making processes, he flew his Hunter over London and at the last second decided to fly under the top span of Tower Bridge! Knowing of the consequences of his unauthorised trip, he proceeded to beat up several airfields and landed to meet his fate. It would be the end of his RAF career (he went on to run a successful exporting company), with political influences making sure he was treated incredibly unfairly - thrown out of the RAF with no right to appeal, no court martial at which he could present his case, medical evidence ignored, unable to meet with his superiors, etc. It took until 1982 for his case to be fully heard, and only then was he exonerated.
Mr_B said:
Redwing said:
Le TVR said:
Eric Mc said:
I've seen a painting of the event.
IIRC it used to hang in the crew room of 1 sqn RAF Cottesmore?In 1968 it was the RAF's 50th birthday, yet the top brass did not see fit to mark this with any flypast, choosing instead for mere parades on the ground. Many RAF personnel were less than impressed and one Flt Lt Alan Pollock of 1(F) Squadron decided to mark the occasion in style - first with toilet-roll bombing missions against rival squadrons, and then on April 5th, while suffering from the beginnings of pneumonia which no doubt had some affect on his decision making processes, he flew his Hunter over London and at the last second decided to fly under the top span of Tower Bridge! Knowing of the consequences of his unauthorised trip, he proceeded to beat up several airfields and landed to meet his fate. It would be the end of his RAF career (he went on to run a successful exporting company), with political influences making sure he was treated incredibly unfairly - thrown out of the RAF with no right to appeal, no court martial at which he could present his case, medical evidence ignored, unable to meet with his superiors, etc. It took until 1982 for his case to be fully heard, and only then was he exonerated.
There is a place for 'derring do'. That wasn't it IMHO.
Father Ted said:
stephen300o said:
Le TVR said:
he proceeded to beat up several airfields .
Call me ill informed but, what does this mean?but bloody fantastic
the ultimate British hooligan fighter ...
the Lightning at Warton!
http://macksaviation.com/video/warton_pt2.mpg
large file worth waiting for!
Edited by Father Ted on Tuesday 27th November 16:08
I've looked through most of this thread and I can't see a single pic of a conveyor belt
Great thready btw
p.s.you can't prove something does not exist, especially if there is not a better definition than an aircraft type name and a few snippets about its appearance that could apply to many aircraft types
Great thready btw
p.s.you can't prove something does not exist, especially if there is not a better definition than an aircraft type name and a few snippets about its appearance that could apply to many aircraft types
Chainguy - wooah - don't take things so seriously!!!!!!
I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
Eric Mc said:
Chainguy - wooah - don't take things so seriously!!!!!!
I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
No worries friend, and your right, sometimes this medium conveys context very poorly.I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
As for anything 'I know', it's all in the public domain. I think. Apart from maybe (thats maybe, if anyone is watching) one small snippet. So while I could post here, could we do it via PM?
Pretty sure I could convice you that bird is out there...I could even show you the time lapse, 'doughnuts on a rope', weather sat photo that shows 3000 mile long contrails, moving at Mach 9, originating out of Groom Lake off into Northern Europe
Mr_B said:
Stacks of helicopters over London all day and night. Same thing really if an engine fails. Had you said what should happen if he clipped the bridge and spread himself over a 5 mile area, then yeah,but engine failure,nah.
When you fly a Helicopter over London, you must be in a designated Helilane. So if your donkey quits, you have a safe landing area within a calculated auto-rotational distance.A damn slight safer than poleing a Hunter under a bridge at 300 knots.
As for early turbine engine failures, they were very, very common. So much so, that a lot of guys who had went to war behind or alonside a Merlin really weren't so keen on them. Especially the spool up times, which meant, unlike the instant power of a piston when you open the throttle, you have to wait for the turbine to spool. Think turbo lag x 100. Not good if you get it on the wrong side of the drag curve.
Hence why, back in the day, coming into land, airbrakes out, and yet engine at max dry power, was the order of the day. So if you had to throw that landing away, you still had a chance of a successfull go around.
Eric Mc said:
To be honest, I have seen the "doughnuts" picture - both on the Internet and on TV. I'm just a natural sceptic at heart.
Well it's not faked, and an aircraft of some description made those contrails; it sure wasn't Superman...Neither is the fact that Skunk works have had an awfully busy car park for 20 years, despite having no projects listed...
Nor is the fact that in Defence Tech Review earlier this year (and this is a biggie), the CIA admitted it was looking to build a Mach 8 or 9 hypersonic aircraft, hoping for a first flight in 2013. So continuing the long standing American ethos of build it, fly it, prove it...and then tell the world your going to build it, work starting soon etc.
Nor were the words of Ben Rich, uttered in his last days before he lost his fight against cancer, about Aurora.
Oh, and did someone say Macrahannish? Now there's a can of worms
Believe me, I could go on. And on. And on.
Chainguy said:
Eric Mc said:
Chainguy - wooah - don't take things so seriously!!!!!!
I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
No worries friend, and your right, sometimes this medium conveys context very poorly.I'm only having a chat.
(I'm not a great user of smileys and such things so maybe my jokey references don't come across as amusing as I think they should).
Regarding Aurora, it's been speculated about for years and at one stage McDonnell Douglas had a completely open pure delta design for the US Navy wwhich may have been Aurora linked. It's just that most if not all American projects do emerge into the open - often within a decade of the initial prototype flying.
I bow to your superior knowledge about choppers. I was never contending that turbine choppers were less or more reliable than piston ones. All I was referring to was that early piston helicopters were low on power and therefore often limited in their prcaticality.
And I don't bet. So, if you want to reveal the source of your evidence for the existence of Aurora, please go ahead. I'd be fascinated to know - really.
As for anything 'I know', it's all in the public domain. I think. Apart from maybe (thats maybe, if anyone is watching) one small snippet. So while I could post here, could we do it via PM?
Pretty sure I could convice you that bird is out there...I could even show you the time lapse, 'doughnuts on a rope', weather sat photo that shows 3000 mile long contrails, moving at Mach 9, originating out of Groom Lake off into Northern Europe
Bill was full of tales about aviation, and I lapped them up, as I was raised on his books. He told me that he was writing the definitive history of the Lockheed Skunk Works, so I naturally enquired about the Aurora. Plain as day he came straight back and said that the aircraft did exist, they had built 6 of them, and they were being flown regularly.
At the time I thought nothing of it, but now, older and wiser, I have to ask the question;
Why would someone as esteemed and knowledgeable lie to a table of gathered VIP's at lunch.
He certainly didn't need to, as we all knew who he was, and he didn't need to show boat, so why did he say it if it wasn't true.
And also, his book has yet to be published, but it is complete.
Anyway, just thought you'd like to hear that one.
Cheers,
Ruttboy.
Hooli said:
Eric Mc said:
To be honest, I have seen the "doughnuts" picture - both on the Internet and on TV. I'm just a natural sceptic at heart.
any chance of posting it up? google doesnt seem to want to show it to me
Is what google came up with for me I remain slightly skeptical about Aurora. I like the whole idea of the project but the physics and materials tech must be fearsome to get working.
Hooli said:
Father Ted said:
stephen300o said:
Le TVR said:
he proceeded to beat up several airfields .
Call me ill informed but, what does this mean?but bloody fantastic
the ultimate British hooligan fighter ...
the Lightning at Warton!
http://macksaviation.com/video/warton_pt2.mpg
large file worth waiting for!
Edited by Father Ted on Tuesday 27th November 16:08
Famous Graham said:
Fume Troll said:
C-130 Hercules refuells a CH-53 over Tel-Aviv
I'd heard it was possible to air-air a chopper, but I've never actually seen it. That must take some nerve (not belittling fixed wing refuelling obviously).Snoggledog said:
Hooli said:
Eric Mc said:
To be honest, I have seen the "doughnuts" picture - both on the Internet and on TV. I'm just a natural sceptic at heart.
any chance of posting it up? google doesnt seem to want to show it to me Is what google came up with for me I remain slightly skeptical about Aurora. I like the whole idea of the project but the physics and materials tech must be fearsome to get working.
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