Gentlemen of war

[Simpo Two]

Ayahuasca said:

Touching story in hindsight, but at the time he should have finished the bomber off.

In return for being spared, did the bomber pilot and crew desist from further attacks on Germany?

One of the ultimate 'war crimes' in chivalric times was to accept mercy from an enemy, and then later resume hostilities.

So the bomber crew was supposed to report to the Squadron Commander and say 'We're not flying any more missions because a nice German let us off?'

And the CO would have said 'Well gee whizz, I didn't know that, you're exempt from the rest of the war'.

[Ayahuasca]

Simpo Two said:

Ayahuasca said:

Touching story in hindsight, but at the time he should have finished the bomber off.

In return for being spared, did the bomber pilot and crew desist from further attacks on Germany?

One of the ultimate 'war crimes' in chivalric times was to accept mercy from an enemy, and then later resume hostilities.

So the bomber crew was supposed to report to the Squadron Commander and say 'We're not flying any more missions because a nice German let us off?'

And the CO would have said 'Well gee whizz, I didn't know that, you're exempt from the rest of the war'.

No, the German should have finished them off.

[Ayahuasca]

Present day analogy would be a suicide bomber, wounded because his bomb didn't go off properly, captured by a policeman but then just released and sent on his way because he looked injured.

[Simpo Two]

Ayahuasca said:

No, the German should have finished them off.

Yes, but he chose not to and that can't be changed. In summary, the German didn't save any of his homeland/people being bombed, and had no effect whatsoever on the war, but he probably saved the lives of the American crew (who of course might have been shot down on the next mission).

+1 for humanity and the families of the crew, 0 for the war effort. Overall score: +1 I reckon.

[Yertis]

I suggest to those hard-bitten men of the show-no-mercy persuasion, that living in daily terror of being blown to bits or burned alive, and having grown weary of seeing your friends blown to bits or burned alive, might make you value the life of your fellow man a little more. They might be warriors, but above all they remain aviators, and some will aspire to a code which transcends the dirty business of war. IMO no-one writing on this thread has any right to judge the conduct of these people either way. The guy was there, he made the call, and he chose life.

Feel free to shoot me down.

Edited for spleng.

Edited by Yertis on Wednesday 24th November 18:42

[Ayahuasca]

Yertis said:

I suggest to those hard-bitten men of the show-no-mercy persuasion, that living in daily terror of being blown to bits or burned alive, and having grown weary of seeing your friends blown to bits or burned alive, might make you value the life of your fellow man a little more. They might be warriors, but above all they remain aviators, and some will aspire to a code which transcends the dirty business of war. IMO one writing on this thread has any right to judge the conduct of these people either way. The guy was there, he made the call, and he chose life.

Feel free to shoot me down.

Down you go.

Above all there were not 'Aviators', they were the 'Enemy', who have just bombed your homeland and plan to do so again. To let one go is not only to betray your fellow countrymen on whose heads this bomber crew will rain future death and destruction, but also your fellow aviators, who will have to risk their own lives AGAIN to attack the same plane.

[Simpo Two]

Yertis said:

Feel free to shoot me down.

Raking cannon fire from six o'clock low, Herr Oberstleutnant Yertis

Edited by Simpo Two on Wednesday 24th November 18:50

[Ayahuasca]

Here is one for the war moralists - this is a picture of German U-Boat U156 carrying to safety the survivors of a ship it has just sunk.



You are Lieutenant James D. Harden of the U.S. Army Air Force, the pilot of an American B-24 bomber on anti-submarine patrol. You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

[Amused2death]

Ayahuasca said:

Here is one for the war moralists - this is a picture of German U-Boat U156 carrying to safety the survivors of a ship it has just sunk.



You are Lieutenant James D. Harden of the U.S. Army Air Force, the pilot of an American B-24 bomber on anti-submarine patrol. You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

Go and bomb the Brits due to poor intelligence

Edited by Amused2death on Wednesday 24th November 21:12

[dr_gn]

Ayahuasca said:

Here is one for the war moralists - this is a picture of German U-Boat U156 carrying to safety the survivors of a ship it has just sunk.



You are Lieutenant James D. Harden of the U.S. Army Air Force, the pilot of an American B-24 bomber on anti-submarine patrol. You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

It's anything but as simple as that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

[Simpo Two]

Ayahuasca said:

You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

Hmm, the old 'human shield' trick... you have to let it go, if for no other reason that if you attack the enemy will get great satisfaction and PR.

[Ayahuasca]

Simpo Two said:

Ayahuasca said:

You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

Hmm, the old 'human shield' trick... you have to let it go, if for no other reason that if you attack the enemy will get great satisfaction and PR.

Nope, the American pilot was ordered to sink it, on the basis that whilst it would kill the Allied survivors, it was more important that the submarine be destroyed so that it couldn't sink any other ships.

As it happened - and proof that if there is a god he is pretty fked-up - the bombs missed the sub, which dived, and hit a lifeboat instead. So the survivors died and the sub lived to attack more ships anyway.

Edited by Ayahuasca on Wednesday 24th November 23:08

[tank slapper]

Yertis said:

I suggest to those hard-bitten men of the show-no-mercy persuasion, that living in daily terror of being blown to bits or burned alive, and having grown weary of seeing your friends blown to bits or burned alive, might make you value the life of your fellow man a little more. They might be warriors, but above all they remain aviators, and some will aspire to a code which transcends the dirty business of war. IMO no-one writing on this thread has any right to judge the conduct of these people either way. The guy was there, he made the call, and he chose life.

Exactly this. It is very easy to be critical after the fact and from the comfort and safety of your own home, having never been or likely to be in a similar situation.

It is worth bearing in mind that a great many (or even a majority) of the people fighting in WW2 were not professional soldiers, but ordinary people drafted in and told to fight. It is not surprising therefore, that some of them behaved as less than the ideal soldier.

Edited by tank slapper on Wednesday 24th November 23:29

[Mojocvh]

Ayahuasca said:

Simpo Two said:

Ayahuasca said:

You see the above sub and see that its decks are covered with survivors. You have a lot of bombs. What do you do?

Hmm, the old 'human shield' trick... you have to let it go, if for no other reason that if you attack the enemy will get great satisfaction and PR.

Nope, the American pilot was ordered to sink it, on the basis that whilst it would kill the Allied survivors, it was more important that the submarine be destroyed so that it couldn't sink any other ships.

As it happened - and proof that if there is a god he is pretty fked-up - the bombs missed the sub, which dived, and hit a lifeboat instead. So the survivors died and the sub lived to attack more ships anyway.

Edited by Ayahuasca on Wednesday 24th November 23:08

Well there ya go. Happy?

[Mike_CTR]

In my opinion this German chap did the right thing. And I would hope the majority of people would agree.

I think the litmus test really is to ask yourself what you would have done in the same situation, and wonder which outcome would cost you more of your sleep and sanity.

[Simpo Two]

Mike_CTR said:

In my opinion this German chap did the right thing. And I would hope the majority of people would agree.

I think the litmus test really is to ask yourself what you would have done in the same situation, and wonder which outcome would cost you more of your sleep and sanity.

The difference of course is that we have the time to debate morals and ethics from the comfort of our desks, and we have all grown up in a period of extended peace. Neither are we fighter pilots.

Put yourself at mortal risk in a fighter, with the mentality they need to do their job, in 1944 when your country has been in a bitter war for five years, at the age of 22, and then add adrenalin and tiredness. Your decision may well be different.

[Simpo Two]

Bedazzled said:

I sometimes wonder what types of people survived the war, was it the heros who had honour and compassion, or the people who stood at the back, hopped from cloud to cloud and shot you in the back the first chance they got. If we show no humanity in moments like that, then what is the point of it all?

The point of war is to win, whether it means conquering your enemy or defending your own country. Man has always fought and always will. As for fighter pilots, you seem to think that by maximising their chances of a kill whilst minimising their own chances of being shot down this is somehow inhumane. No, they are doing their job. A pilot who won't engage is not only pointless but increases the chances of his colleagues being shot down. But hopefully he'll have been weeded out before it gets that far.

Bedazzled said:

The sub story was a spectacular own-goal by the Allies, according to Wiki the Germans issued an order to stop picking up survivors after that.

So it was a human shield, and when it failed to stop an attack, the Germans no longer bothered because it was not in their interests. More generally, stopping to pick up survivors, whilst humane and all that, meant that your vessel was stopped and therefore more vulnerable to attack, either from air or by torpedo. 'Torpedoed while picking up survivors' is the phrase - if they are enemy survivors, then you risk your ship, its crew and its fighting ability - the Captain's first responsibility.

Like I said, we are all so far from real war and real fear we are in no position to judge.

[Getragdogleg]

If I found myself fighting for my country in a war I did not want to fight for reasons I did not fully trust I would shoot to injure.

Talking to some German friends taught me that towards the end of the war many Germans knew what was happening was wrong and tried to limit the damage they inflicted.

Let face it, the Government of any country at any time are just a bunch of people who have been put together largely by accident, to expect their views are right or infallible is a huge leap of faith best made by unquestioning idiots.

[Ayahuasca]

Getragdogleg said:

Talking to some German friends taught me that towards the end of the war many Germans knew what was happening was wrong and tried to limit the damage they inflicted.

I think that this kind of thinking only happens when you are getting your arse handed to you.

[Simpo Two]

Perhaps, but we'll never know.

You can see it's very odd for a fighter pilot, trained and psyched up to shoot at enemy airplanes, when faced with the prospect of downing a crippled bomber and getting an easy kill, not to shoot it down but to think 'Perhaps there's an outward bound bomber within my limited patrol range; I'll save my ammo.'

If he had any ammo of course!

No, I think he simply took mercy on the crew, saw them as fellow aviators and let them go in a moment of generosity. And it didn't have any effect on the war. But presumably if the bomber had been either inbound or not damaged, he'd have shot it down and killed the crew - the same people he saved later