The Red Arrows
Discussion
after plenty of healthy debate about the cost and perceived value of their red arrows recently, i came across these figures today for FY 09/10 which i thought you might find interesting....
Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
andytk said:
That works out at about 31 pence per taxpayer, before the Reds "earnings" are taken into account.
That is some seriously good value for money.
Andy
I for one would be happy to pay two, no three times that amount That is some seriously good value for money.
Andy
Must create a massive source of interest in the RAF too. Certainly every time I see the Arrows I want to sign up there and then.
D-Angle said:
I heard there was talk once of replacing the 9 Hawks with 4 Typhoons, as it would work out about the same cost. As much as I would like to see the Red Arrows equipped with the Tiff, it wouldn't be half as fun with only 4 planes IMHO.
These days I think it's more likely they'll be replaced with four Turcanos.pablo said:
after plenty of healthy debate about the cost and perceived value of their red arrows recently, i came across these figures today for FY 09/10 which i thought you might find interesting....
Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
Thanks for that. Can you also dig out the figures for "Business generated for UK aviation, aerospace, defence and tourism industries" please?Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
Crossflow Kid said:
pablo said:
after plenty of healthy debate about the cost and perceived value of their red arrows recently, i came across these figures today for FY 09/10 which i thought you might find interesting....
Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
Thanks for that. Can you also dig out the figures for "Business generated for UK aviation, aerospace, defence and tourism industries" please?Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
shall i find a cure for cancer whilst i'm at it?
seriously though, i'll have a go and i'm not starting a fight here, just calling it as i see it....
Business generated for UK aviation industries as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performances:
negligable probably, most of the support will be BAe, i cant see how the aviation industry will directly benefit from an aerobatic display team
Business generated for UK defence industries as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performance?: again, looking at future defence requiremetns and likely procuremetn strategies, negliable. i dont think any aspiring engineer would opt for the defence industry on the basis of the red arrows but more for the new technology employed in areas such as UAVs and ISTAR
Business generated for UK tourism as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performance?:
most people go to an airshow, spend money in the local area and go home on the same day. i would think the number of air show attendees who attend a particular airshow purely to see the red arrows is <10%.
D-Angle said:
I heard there was talk once of replacing the 9 Hawks with 4 Typhoons, as it would work out about the same cost. As much as I would like to see the Red Arrows equipped with the Tiff, it wouldn't be half as fun with only 4 planes IMHO.
They did this with Lightnings many moons ago. I think it was Black Arrows then, in Hunters....
pablo said:
Crossflow Kid said:
pablo said:
after plenty of healthy debate about the cost and perceived value of their red arrows recently, i came across these figures today for FY 09/10 which i thought you might find interesting....
Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
Thanks for that. Can you also dig out the figures for "Business generated for UK aviation, aerospace, defence and tourism industries" please?Running costs: £9.35m
Income from Sponsorship: £85,000
Income from Merchandise: £14,000
Income from Appearance fees: £425,000
shall i find a cure for cancer whilst i'm at it?
seriously though, i'll have a go and i'm not starting a fight here, just calling it as i see it....
Business generated for UK aviation industries as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performances:
negligable probably, most of the support will be BAe, i cant see how the aviation industry will directly benefit from an aerobatic display team
Business generated for UK defence industries as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performance?: again, looking at future defence requiremetns and likely procuremetn strategies, negliable. i dont think any aspiring engineer would opt for the defence industry on the basis of the red arrows but more for the new technology employed in areas such as UAVs and ISTAR
Business generated for UK tourism as a direct result of the red arrows existence/performance?:
most people go to an airshow, spend money in the local area and go home on the same day. i would think the number of air show attendees who attend a particular airshow purely to see the red arrows is <10%.
And the tourism thing? It goes far beyond just air shows. The British GP, Cowes Week, HMQ's birthday, and in 2012 the Limpicks to name just four....people come here to see those things, and when they go home and tell their friends what a great time they had in United Kingdomland, "And on top of all that we saw them Red Arrows too...." it fans the flames a little, just a little.
It's a shame some miserable sod always come along and pisses on it.
Eric Mc said:
TuxRacer said:
Eric Mc said:
God save us from all those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Indeed.Bloody accountants!
CaptainSlow said:
Eric Mc said:
TuxRacer said:
Eric Mc said:
God save us from all those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Indeed.Bloody accountants!
Crossflow Kid said:
pablo said:
Crossflow Kid said:
pablo said:
if a foreign defence attache goes to Fairford, has a nice lunch, meets the team then gets wowed by all that red and blue smoke, he's more likely to go back home and say "Buy what they buy", not just for training requirements but across the board.
But were any Gnat trainers ever exported?wow, this topic comes up a bit but i think this was the first time the figures were actually mentioned so i thought some people may like to see them but i wasnt expecting quite so much flaming, i'm not an accountant either, that made me laugh! i am not advocating the retirement of the red arrows, nor am i ferociously defending them.... i just thought some figures might be fun.... i actually think they represent extraordinarily good value for money but the arguments posted supporting them border laughingly on jingoism some of the time...
Crossflow Kid said:
You clearly have no idea just how much certain foreign air forces strive to be like ours, and the very high regard/envy with which UK forces are viewed from elsewhere on the planet.
you will have to trust me but i have the experience and the knowledge to think i know what i am talking about here but thanks for being so concerned Crossflow Kid said:
OK, so the Hawk is a bit long in the tooth now, but hardware aside what the Reds do very well is project excellence in aviation which in turn implies the organisation of which they are a part strives to excel,
I agreeCrossflow Kid said:
so if a foreign defence attache goes to Fairford, has a nice lunch, meets the team then gets wowed by all that red and blue smoke, he's more likely to go back home and say "Buy what they buy", not just for training requirements but across the board. It's the same pshytecology behind Daniel Craig helming an Aston on screen....."Buy our car...be like him"
these days are gone, the rest of the world are well aware how good the RAF are and the training and organsiation that makes up a product like the red arrows, sadly the rest of the world also know how broke we are and how we manage to do it and what corners we cut elsewhere.... "buy what they buy" doesnt work because what we buy is what we can afford and not the best, we make it work because we are bloody good at it but in reality we would spend more on better equipment, training etc etc and not cut corners relying on attitude and ability.Crossflow Kid said:
And the tourism thing? It goes far beyond just air shows. The British GP, Cowes Week, HMQ's birthday, and in 2012 the Limpicks to name just four....people come here to see those things, and when they go home and tell their friends what a great time they had in United Kingdomland, "And on top of all that we saw them Red Arrows too...." it fans the flames a little, just a little.
i agree but its hard to be objective about something like that and quantify the value. Crossflow Kid said:
It's a shame some miserable sod always come along and pisses on it.
whereas this is subjective and clearly you got more angry as you typed and could not repel the anger without a little bit of abuse on the end which is a shame.Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 10th September 13:59
Gnat trainers weren't exported but single seat Gnats were (India, Finland and - almost - Yugoslavia). In addition, Hindustan Aeronautics acquired a licence to manufacture the Gnat and then developed the more sophisticated HAL Ajeet in both single and two seat variants.
And, of course, the Hawk has been a very successful design and earned millions for both BAe and the UK.
And, of course, the Hawk has been a very successful design and earned millions for both BAe and the UK.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 10th September 14:18
Eric Mc said:
Gnat trainers weren't exported but single seat Gnats were (India, Finland and - almost - Yugoslavia). In addition, Hindustan Aeronautics acquired a licence to manufacture the Gnat and then developed the more sophisticated HAL Ajeet in both single and two seat variants.
And, of course, the Hawk has been a very successful design and earned millions for both BAe and the UK.
But the Gnat deals were long before the Red Arrows were formed, so I doubt the Hawk's success has much to do with the Arrows either.And, of course, the Hawk has been a very successful design and earned millions for both BAe and the UK.
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