how much to wet lease an A380?
Discussion
If you want somewhere in the south east for a 747 then Manston is your only real choice.
As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I remember one of my schoolteachers recounting the story - apparently he'd witnessed the event.
My late father witnessed the take-off, he was one of the coppers on duty that shut the A40 off.It was after this incident that the letters were painted on the two gasholders IIRC.
mattdaniels said:
If you want somewhere in the south east for a 747 then Manston is your only real choice.
As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
Yes, you would-as an air carrier....but ad-hoc charter seems to be the best bet as the charter company arranges all of that, in simple terms, I say where and when and how many people, they say 'it will cost you X'. It is, at the moment, a simple mathematical excercise. The charges include departure taxes, landing fees, insurance etc, everything really. I guess that this is what every airline has to figure out every day, only on a much larger scale. Fuel is the big variable that I can't protect against (well, not on this scale anyway) I am pretty much aware that the passenger revenue will not cover the cost of the flights-even if I managed to find an older 747-200 single class configured for 600 people. It is working out if cargo, sales of food/drink/ad ons can cover the additional costs, also having in mind that my minimum fixed cost for the aircraft is much higher.As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
Clearly it is much less expensive to operate an aircraft that you own, than charter it from someone else but then you don't have the massive upfront costs and headaches to look after.
Been there! Around the Millenium I went through this exercise. Spoke to the UK CAA, NZ CAA, a/c owners, travel agents, venture capitalists (through a partner at PWC). Bottom line was that the a/c owners were so greedy the numbers didn't stack up. Slots at Heathrow - not a problem. Ground handling - not a problem. Wet lease costs covered fuel.I think I was quoted $US17K/flight hr on a 747. I wasn't interested in the Tri-Star which would require two stops to NZ - but it was significantly cheaper. I think I was coming in at around £1400/seat to NZ/Aust around Christmas '99. It's all very doable - you just need deep pockets if it doesn't work out! As far as ABTA bonding is concerned - that's sorted by an insurance policy through Lloyds. Aviation is a nice place to SPEND money if you're sufficiently wealthy - but the last place a prudent business would invest if he/she wants to MAKE money. Ego generally drives new investment in this industry. Perhaps it helps if your business is vertically integrated e.g. you're a national airline flying to a far-flung place at which you have the majority of the inbound & outbound air traffic & you own hotels, a domestic airline, ground & sea transport, tourist attractions etc
These chaps : http://www.ilfc.com/ will lease you one in 2014 if an airline hasn't snaffled one up already.
I've dealt with folk leasing an aircraft, paying by card at the airport and the pilot having to pay for the fuel himself.
It does get a bit slap dash under the surface.
These instances were 737 and A319 territory though, nothing on this scale though.
This chap : http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/jumbo-jet-for-hi... (It's a library picture) thought he'd lease a cargo 747, fill it with Norwegian Salmon and make a mint.
It sat just off the runway here in Oslo and didn't turn a wheel until he gave up.
I've dealt with folk leasing an aircraft, paying by card at the airport and the pilot having to pay for the fuel himself.
It does get a bit slap dash under the surface.
These instances were 737 and A319 territory though, nothing on this scale though.
This chap : http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/jumbo-jet-for-hi... (It's a library picture) thought he'd lease a cargo 747, fill it with Norwegian Salmon and make a mint.
It sat just off the runway here in Oslo and didn't turn a wheel until he gave up.
Penguinracer said:
Been there! Around the Millenium I went through this exercise. Spoke to the UK CAA, NZ CAA, a/c owners, travel agents, venture capitalists (through a partner at PWC). Bottom line was that the a/c owners were so greedy the numbers didn't stack up. Slots at Heathrow - not a problem. Ground handling - not a problem. Wet lease costs covered fuel.I think I was quoted $US17K/flight hr on a 747. I wasn't interested in the Tri-Star which would require two stops to NZ - but it was significantly cheaper. I think I was coming in at around £1400/seat to NZ/Aust around Christmas '99. It's all very doable - you just need deep pockets if it doesn't work out! As far as ABTA bonding is concerned - that's sorted by an insurance policy through Lloyds. Aviation is a nice place to SPEND money if you're sufficiently wealthy - but the last place a prudent business would invest if he/she wants to MAKE money. Ego generally drives new investment in this industry. Perhaps it helps if your business is vertically integrated e.g. you're a national airline flying to a far-flung place at which you have the majority of the inbound & outbound air traffic & you own hotels, a domestic airline, ground & sea transport, tourist attractions etc
Cheers for your input Penguin 
not much has changed really from what I have discovered over the last couple of days,although only one broker has so far come back to me, he is willing to talk to me on a 'confidential' basis, regarding what rates you can get if 'they' think you are serious and not just a broker mystery shopping others.I get the feeling air charter is a bit of a closed shop.ATOL bonding is a bit of an odd one. I don't know what it was like then but now there appear to be various catagories of ATOL licence. The basic one only covers 500 passengers per year, with it seems, very few checks other than have you the £690 fee. I will be getting a quote for an Insurance backed bond tomorrow. How much can it cost though? I had £2m worth of PLI for £140 a year when I had my tiling company, although I do appreciate that the pool of people/companies wanting bonding insurance is smaller than those wanting PLI!
My issue now, is that I need an accurate (sensible) base cost to work from, assuming I can get an ATOL licence etc. From then, I can work out potential freight income, passenger costs etc. This, I am sure I will get....eventually.
So, off to watch 13 Ghosts now and I will post my progress 'as is,when is'
It's all falling into place...
How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
TVR_1 I think we were working off an 80% load factor which at peak season was a sensible figure. As Warren Buffet says - if you can't work it out on the back of envelope & see decent margins - forget it (or words to that effect). Marketing costs are the other open question - how much will they have to be to persuade people to go with an unknown operator? I found the exercise put me off the idea of any aviation business as a profitable enterprise. Whether it's airlines, freight, heli-skiing, bush flying, flight schools, warbird operation - the margins in aviation seem to vary from slim to non-existent. I bet Branson regrets getting involved. He sold 49% to Singapore Airlines who are trying to sell their share (perhaps partly due to the fuel fixing scandal - a civil suit may follow). Due to the structure of the industry & issues of airspace sovereignty a vendor can only sell an international airline to entity of the same nationality - kind of narrows the market!
Simpo Two said:
It's all falling into place...
How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
Cheap, buy that and you'd immediately have the worlds largest private motor yacht at a fraction of the price. Eclipse cost $800million.How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
Looks a bit rusty at the moment though.
Quick update chaps. You know, I often wondered what it would be like to have a foookin mad idea and rather than talk about it-try and do something about it.Why regret what you havn't done, rather than what you have?
That may well be coming from my once again, new found confidence of my business acumen, having just sold a car for £600 that I paid £250 for 3 days ago.(I also have a tasty,1 titled owner, full history, Scenic RXE with twin sunroof and eyeball freezing air con coming up soon. It is a bit pockmarked on the outside but a lovely car otherwise...£995 with 12 months MOT and 6 months tax)But I digress
So, all things being equal, I will have my small business ATOL licence application in next week.(dipping a toe in the water,as it where, for anyone who cares to look up what that particular licence is)
I have an 'in principal' agreement for an insurance backed ATOL bond (although, strangely, they do want a 'small premium')....more of that later, (if any one fancies a bit of a share of an air charter company, feel free to PM me!)
Now, the whole scheme falls down without a name!(and an aircraft or passengers, of course, but I'm having chats on Monday about that) So! Any suggestions? Expat Air? New World Air? (NWA for those who are old enough?) Hawk Air, Tern Air? (for you birdwatchers out there)
I am trying to avoid names like 'Flying High!' motto 'We Will Always Get You Down'....although, I actually quite like that.
Suggestions please.....and the winner 'may' get a free flight....
Thoughts most welcome and I will keep you all updated!
Ed
That may well be coming from my once again, new found confidence of my business acumen, having just sold a car for £600 that I paid £250 for 3 days ago.(I also have a tasty,1 titled owner, full history, Scenic RXE with twin sunroof and eyeball freezing air con coming up soon. It is a bit pockmarked on the outside but a lovely car otherwise...£995 with 12 months MOT and 6 months tax)But I digress
So, all things being equal, I will have my small business ATOL licence application in next week.(dipping a toe in the water,as it where, for anyone who cares to look up what that particular licence is)
I have an 'in principal' agreement for an insurance backed ATOL bond (although, strangely, they do want a 'small premium')....more of that later, (if any one fancies a bit of a share of an air charter company, feel free to PM me!)
Now, the whole scheme falls down without a name!(and an aircraft or passengers, of course, but I'm having chats on Monday about that) So! Any suggestions? Expat Air? New World Air? (NWA for those who are old enough?) Hawk Air, Tern Air? (for you birdwatchers out there)
I am trying to avoid names like 'Flying High!' motto 'We Will Always Get You Down'....although, I actually quite like that.
Suggestions please.....and the winner 'may' get a free flight....
Thoughts most welcome and I will keep you all updated!
Ed
Simpo Two said:
It's all falling into place...
How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
No ta; an unfinished cruiseship that's been rotting in Piraeus for 15 years, it's probably worth 5p on the pound at Alang. I wouldn't touch it with yours.How about a boat as well? http://uk.boats.com/boat-details/Custom-Unfinished...
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff