Sourdough breadmaking
Discussion
FiF said:
I had a real disaster with a Rye loaf some time back. Kneaded and kneaded fit to bust and still couldn't get what I felt to be a decent dough. But by then was dripping with sweat and thought enough. Left it to prove and it rose but not enough so discarded it.
Watched Hollywood do a Rye loaf the other night. Mixer and dough hook.
Git!
Thing to remember with rye flour is that it has a really low gluten content so you'll never get the same springiness as a wheat loaf. I like 100% rye but my other half won't eat it as it is a bit too dense. for a lighter rye loaf try a 60/40 rye to wheat flour ratio.Watched Hollywood do a Rye loaf the other night. Mixer and dough hook.
Git!
PedroB said:
FiF said:
I had a real disaster with a Rye loaf some time back. Kneaded and kneaded fit to bust and still couldn't get what I felt to be a decent dough. But by then was dripping with sweat and thought enough. Left it to prove and it rose but not enough so discarded it.
Watched Hollywood do a Rye loaf the other night. Mixer and dough hook.
Git!
Thing to remember with rye flour is that it has a really low gluten content so you'll never get the same springiness as a wheat loaf. I like 100% rye but my other half won't eat it as it is a bit too dense. for a lighter rye loaf try a 60/40 rye to wheat flour ratio.Watched Hollywood do a Rye loaf the other night. Mixer and dough hook.
Git!
I only use the 50/50 mix of Rye flour/Strong white flour in my starter.
My starter is then added to a 100% mix (1.5 kilos) of strong white flour to make the bread. Results are pretty much perfect every time, i.e a full flavoured bread with a crispy crust and a light crumb.
Having spend some time kneading the dough for my first loaf with the new starter, I've just noticed Hollywoods book reckons leave it to prove at around 22-24 degrees, and do go below 15 degrees. My kitchen's only about 15 degrees at the moment so I've moved it somewhere warmer. Presumably that means my starter won't need feeding as often as my previous one did back in the summer.
I had the dough a bit too wet, fist rise in a bowl looked good, second rise on a tray not so good, it spread out rather than rising up and I ended up with a loaf about a foot and half across by a couple of inches high 
Structure wasn't bad though and it tasted good so I'll try a bit less water next time...either that or have a go at sourdough focaccia
Structure wasn't bad though and it tasted good so I'll try a bit less water next time...either that or have a go at sourdough focaccia Boo, do you ever do cobs or just tin loafs? My dough felt pretty good this time round but when I left the loaf to prove as a cob it spread out more than up again, although it did rise a bit more in the oven. Taste and texture were spot on but I ended up with a loaf about 18" across and 4" high
My Kenwood Chef arrived today so I'll see if I'm not kneading it enough by having a go with dough hook next time I make one.
My Kenwood Chef arrived today so I'll see if I'm not kneading it enough by having a go with dough hook next time I make one.
Yes I do Cobb loaves occasionaly Rizzo - if I'm baking for a family celebration meal, I will often make a huge round loaf. But for my normal weekly bake, for convenience sake (even slicing for toast, sandwiches etc) I usually do at least 2 or 3 tin breads.
A recent bake that included a small cobb:
Water volume:
I too used excessive water when I started until I got the hang of it, and I think you may be overwatering yours if its spreading as much as you say. It will all come with practice!
The trick is to only add half your water to start with, then gradually trickle more in as you mix it in the bowl. Although my recipe stated 'about' 2 pints of water to my 1.5 k of flour, quite often I use much less than that, depending on humidity etc.
The aim is to use 'just enough' water to combine everything into a fairly stiff dough, and it should still be on the dry side when tipped out on the worktop to knead properly. You can always add tiny amounts of water as you knead to make it more pliable if its really too dry.
Hope that helps and makes sense, keep practising!
A recent bake that included a small cobb:
Water volume:
I too used excessive water when I started until I got the hang of it, and I think you may be overwatering yours if its spreading as much as you say. It will all come with practice!
The trick is to only add half your water to start with, then gradually trickle more in as you mix it in the bowl. Although my recipe stated 'about' 2 pints of water to my 1.5 k of flour, quite often I use much less than that, depending on humidity etc.
The aim is to use 'just enough' water to combine everything into a fairly stiff dough, and it should still be on the dry side when tipped out on the worktop to knead properly. You can always add tiny amounts of water as you knead to make it more pliable if its really too dry.
Hope that helps and makes sense, keep practising!
Cheers. I put less water in last night, kneaded with the dough hook rather than by hand, and have left it in tin to rise today so I'll see how that one turns out in comparison.
I know it's cheating slightly but using a machine with a hook is so much less hassle, the dough didn't even need to touch the worktop so no mess breadmaking, although I won't know how well it worked until tonight.
I know it's cheating slightly but using a machine with a hook is so much less hassle, the dough didn't even need to touch the worktop so no mess breadmaking, although I won't know how well it worked until tonight.
I prefer my bread on the lighter side:
My Fan assisted oven - heat up to 225c to start. Then once loaves are in, set timer for 22 mins, and turn down to 200c.
@ 22 mins, take out, and put back in oven (upside down) for a further 4mins.
So total oven time is 26mins.
Crusts are lovely and crispy and insides are perfectly cooked. I believe my oven is a hot one though - all ovens vary and yours may be running cooler than mine.
PS my loaves are 2lb in weight - if your loaf is bigger it will need longer.
My Fan assisted oven - heat up to 225c to start. Then once loaves are in, set timer for 22 mins, and turn down to 200c.
@ 22 mins, take out, and put back in oven (upside down) for a further 4mins.
So total oven time is 26mins.
Crusts are lovely and crispy and insides are perfectly cooked. I believe my oven is a hot one though - all ovens vary and yours may be running cooler than mine.
PS my loaves are 2lb in weight - if your loaf is bigger it will need longer.
Edited by Boo152 on Tuesday 19th November 20:07
Bump
Been doing some further experimenting.
(Mrs Boo prefers a more 'well done' bake, so have altered my timings a bit)
________________________________________________________________
Experiment 1.
AS above, but I now set the timer for 25 mins for the initial bake, still @ 200c (fan oven), then take out @ 25 mins, and back in oven (upside down) for a further 4 mins.
So total oven time 29mins.
If however you are not using loaf tins yours will bake quicker, so you may need to turn the oven down a tad for the last few minutes.
____________________________________________________________________
Experiment 2.
Tried a no-knead loaf - made my usual batch with 1.5kg of flour, but then at the knocking back stage, instead of shaping the whole batch into loaves, I just did 3/4 of the batch, and put the left over piece of the dough in an oiled polybag in the fridge overnight.
Next morning I just slit the polybag and tipped it gently onto the baking tray, no shaping or kneading, and let it come up to room temperature (a couple of hours) before baking for 25 mins @ 200c fan assisted.
The resulting loaf was a bit mis-shapen but it sure tasted good!
Been doing some further experimenting.
(Mrs Boo prefers a more 'well done' bake, so have altered my timings a bit)
________________________________________________________________
Experiment 1.
AS above, but I now set the timer for 25 mins for the initial bake, still @ 200c (fan oven), then take out @ 25 mins, and back in oven (upside down) for a further 4 mins.
So total oven time 29mins.
If however you are not using loaf tins yours will bake quicker, so you may need to turn the oven down a tad for the last few minutes.
____________________________________________________________________
Experiment 2.
Tried a no-knead loaf - made my usual batch with 1.5kg of flour, but then at the knocking back stage, instead of shaping the whole batch into loaves, I just did 3/4 of the batch, and put the left over piece of the dough in an oiled polybag in the fridge overnight.
Next morning I just slit the polybag and tipped it gently onto the baking tray, no shaping or kneading, and let it come up to room temperature (a couple of hours) before baking for 25 mins @ 200c fan assisted.
The resulting loaf was a bit mis-shapen but it sure tasted good!
Good timing, after a couple of weeks off I had another go last night too.
Decided to try a wetter dough in a tin, used 250g of starter, 250g of strong white and probably a bit too much water as it was still really sticky after 10 minutes or more in the Kenwood, the machine coped with it fine but I think it was still to wet to knead by hand.
Left to prove overnight in the bowl, knocked it back and bunged it in the tin in the morning. Realised at this point just how wet it was, I went to put it in the tin and it wouldn't let go of me
Left it about 10 or 11 hours for it's second prove before giving it 20 mins at 200 (fan oven), and then a further 20 at 180 out of the tin.
I still don't think it's risen enough, and it's a fraction sticky in the middle so I think another few minutes in the oven would have been better, and I'll make the dough a bit drier next time too.
I think my problem is my house is too cold at this time of year, it rose a further inch within a couple of minutes of going in the oven, so I'm tempted to give it an hour or two at a warmer temperature before I cook it next time. Flavour and crust were spot on though.
Off on holiday for a fortnight soon so I'm hoping the starter should survive in the fridge if I give it a good feed and let it get going before I bung it in, although I'm half tempted to give it to a friend to babysit for me
Decided to try a wetter dough in a tin, used 250g of starter, 250g of strong white and probably a bit too much water as it was still really sticky after 10 minutes or more in the Kenwood, the machine coped with it fine but I think it was still to wet to knead by hand.
Left to prove overnight in the bowl, knocked it back and bunged it in the tin in the morning. Realised at this point just how wet it was, I went to put it in the tin and it wouldn't let go of me
Left it about 10 or 11 hours for it's second prove before giving it 20 mins at 200 (fan oven), and then a further 20 at 180 out of the tin.
I still don't think it's risen enough, and it's a fraction sticky in the middle so I think another few minutes in the oven would have been better, and I'll make the dough a bit drier next time too.
I think my problem is my house is too cold at this time of year, it rose a further inch within a couple of minutes of going in the oven, so I'm tempted to give it an hour or two at a warmer temperature before I cook it next time. Flavour and crust were spot on though.
Off on holiday for a fortnight soon so I'm hoping the starter should survive in the fridge if I give it a good feed and let it get going before I bung it in, although I'm half tempted to give it to a friend to babysit for me
Started a batch of sourdough bread last night – with a slightly different approach.
As some of you will know from reading the thread, my normal method is to knead well, then back in the mixing bowl, covered overnight, knock back in the morning, then into tins and prove for a couple of hours before baking. The results are consistently excellent; but it’s normally up to 12-hours from start to cutting the first slice.
However, because we finished last week’s bread yesterday, we had none for breakfast, (precious little milk either, so cereal not an option). I know, I know, 1st world problems!
So, to try a slightly different method.
Knead as normal, and then place a lump of the dough (equivalent to my standard loaf size - 2lb weight) into a well larded Swiss roll tin. Press flat with a floury hand, cover in oiled cling film, leave overnight as usual. The remainder of the dough (about 4lb in weight) I returned back to the bowl and covered as normal.
At 6.30 am I put the now risen “Swiss roll bread” in the oven. By 7am I had a perfect (flatish) loaf, and I can report that the bacon and egg butties were yummy!
Result.
In the foreground you'll see what's left of the flatbread after our breakfast butties.
The more eagle eyed will have noticed the slightly droopy nature of the remainder of the loaves.
This happened because I divided the rest of the dough into tins this morning (as normal), but then placed in the warm to rise before baking, and stupidly left a bit too long before baking!
As the "Swiss roll no-knockback loaf" was successfull, next week I will divide whole of the batch into tins overnight, and see if the results are the same.
Get baking chaps!
As some of you will know from reading the thread, my normal method is to knead well, then back in the mixing bowl, covered overnight, knock back in the morning, then into tins and prove for a couple of hours before baking. The results are consistently excellent; but it’s normally up to 12-hours from start to cutting the first slice.
However, because we finished last week’s bread yesterday, we had none for breakfast, (precious little milk either, so cereal not an option). I know, I know, 1st world problems!
So, to try a slightly different method.
Knead as normal, and then place a lump of the dough (equivalent to my standard loaf size - 2lb weight) into a well larded Swiss roll tin. Press flat with a floury hand, cover in oiled cling film, leave overnight as usual. The remainder of the dough (about 4lb in weight) I returned back to the bowl and covered as normal.
At 6.30 am I put the now risen “Swiss roll bread” in the oven. By 7am I had a perfect (flatish) loaf, and I can report that the bacon and egg butties were yummy!
Result.
In the foreground you'll see what's left of the flatbread after our breakfast butties.The more eagle eyed will have noticed the slightly droopy nature of the remainder of the loaves.
This happened because I divided the rest of the dough into tins this morning (as normal), but then placed in the warm to rise before baking, and stupidly left a bit too long before baking!
As the "Swiss roll no-knockback loaf" was successfull, next week I will divide whole of the batch into tins overnight, and see if the results are the same.
Get baking chaps!
I've been taking a break from sourdough and trying to get my normal bread right first. The starter seems to be ticking over ok in a cold kitchen if I just feed it once a week so I should be able to revive it when needed.
Tried a couple of recipes that tasted great but I'm not always getting it to rise as well as I'd hoped, so I had a go with the recipe I used to use in the Panasonic breadmaker, but which has also gone wrong on me a few times. The resultant dough was way too wet and I had to add quite a lot of extra flour to get it right, so it appears the current flour I'm using (mix of sainsburys white and seeded wholemeal) doesn't need anywhere near as much water as others I've used. That recipe uses a tablespoon of sugar with 400g of flour, and rose perfectly. Tried a very similar recipe without the sugar and it didn't rise as well, so I'm thinking I either need to add a bit of sugar, change the flour I'm using, or give it a lot longer to rise. The advantage of the sugared recipe is with an hour for the first rise and around 1.5 hours for the second I can make a loaf in an evening rather than only being able to do it at the weekend. With a slower sourdough I should be able to prove over night, rise in the day and cook when I get home in the evening.
I've finally got the cooking times about right though, in a bread tin I'm giving it 10 minutes at 220, 10 minutes and 180, then take it out of the tin for a further 10 minutes upside down at 180.
Tried a couple of recipes that tasted great but I'm not always getting it to rise as well as I'd hoped, so I had a go with the recipe I used to use in the Panasonic breadmaker, but which has also gone wrong on me a few times. The resultant dough was way too wet and I had to add quite a lot of extra flour to get it right, so it appears the current flour I'm using (mix of sainsburys white and seeded wholemeal) doesn't need anywhere near as much water as others I've used. That recipe uses a tablespoon of sugar with 400g of flour, and rose perfectly. Tried a very similar recipe without the sugar and it didn't rise as well, so I'm thinking I either need to add a bit of sugar, change the flour I'm using, or give it a lot longer to rise. The advantage of the sugared recipe is with an hour for the first rise and around 1.5 hours for the second I can make a loaf in an evening rather than only being able to do it at the weekend. With a slower sourdough I should be able to prove over night, rise in the day and cook when I get home in the evening.
I've finally got the cooking times about right though, in a bread tin I'm giving it 10 minutes at 220, 10 minutes and 180, then take it out of the tin for a further 10 minutes upside down at 180.
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