Sourdough breadmaking
Discussion
Tuesday mini-bake:
Just a reminder of how simple good sourdough bread is to make. You dont need any special equipment and the ingredients are available from your local supermarket. For the above two loaves my recipe is as follows:
Ingredients: 750 grammes of Aldi Strong white flour; 2 level teaspoons cooking salt; 1 tablespoon of rapeseed oil; (about) 1/4 litre of active sourdough starter; and (up to) 1/2 litre water. Method. Chuck all the ingredients (but just half the water) into a large mixing bowl. Stir with a big spoon until thoroughly mixed. Start kneading in the bowl, gradually trickling more water in as you knead until a soft pliable dough is formed, but try to keep on the dry side rather than sticky. After about 5 minutes tip the dough onto a lighly floured worktop and continue to knead and stretch the dough about until it will form into a soft ball without collapsing. You may not need all the water. Chuck the ball of dough back in the bowl. Cover with oiled clingfilm and leave for about 5/6 hours; the rise time will depend on kitchen room temperature (I leave mine overnite), but it can be a pain in the summer getting up at 4am!
When the dough has at least doubled its original size, take off the clingfilm and put to one side; knock back (quickly slap) the dough down in the bowl, tip out again onto your floured worktop; divide into 2, and quickly shape into balls. Do not over handle. Place the dough balls on a well greased oven tray, slash the tops with a sharp knife, cover again with the oiled cling film, and leave to prove for another hour or so until they again double in size. Oven on at 200c (fan) wait until temp is reached and place the loves in the oven for about 24 minutes. Take out after 24 minutes and tap the tops, they should sound hollow and should be golden brown. If not dark enough for your taste put back in for a couple more minutes.
Place on a rack to cool(if you can wait)for about an hour - slice off your first crust, and spread with best butter. Enjoy.
Get baking chaps - it really is that easy!
Just a reminder of how simple good sourdough bread is to make. You dont need any special equipment and the ingredients are available from your local supermarket. For the above two loaves my recipe is as follows:
Ingredients: 750 grammes of Aldi Strong white flour; 2 level teaspoons cooking salt; 1 tablespoon of rapeseed oil; (about) 1/4 litre of active sourdough starter; and (up to) 1/2 litre water. Method. Chuck all the ingredients (but just half the water) into a large mixing bowl. Stir with a big spoon until thoroughly mixed. Start kneading in the bowl, gradually trickling more water in as you knead until a soft pliable dough is formed, but try to keep on the dry side rather than sticky. After about 5 minutes tip the dough onto a lighly floured worktop and continue to knead and stretch the dough about until it will form into a soft ball without collapsing. You may not need all the water. Chuck the ball of dough back in the bowl. Cover with oiled clingfilm and leave for about 5/6 hours; the rise time will depend on kitchen room temperature (I leave mine overnite), but it can be a pain in the summer getting up at 4am!
When the dough has at least doubled its original size, take off the clingfilm and put to one side; knock back (quickly slap) the dough down in the bowl, tip out again onto your floured worktop; divide into 2, and quickly shape into balls. Do not over handle. Place the dough balls on a well greased oven tray, slash the tops with a sharp knife, cover again with the oiled cling film, and leave to prove for another hour or so until they again double in size. Oven on at 200c (fan) wait until temp is reached and place the loves in the oven for about 24 minutes. Take out after 24 minutes and tap the tops, they should sound hollow and should be golden brown. If not dark enough for your taste put back in for a couple more minutes.
Place on a rack to cool(if you can wait)for about an hour - slice off your first crust, and spread with best butter. Enjoy.
Get baking chaps - it really is that easy!
Boo152 said:
Get it started you wussy!
Lactobacillus strain will work it's magic in any weather and turn flour and water into manna from heaven....
where did a year go?!Lactobacillus strain will work it's magic in any weather and turn flour and water into manna from heaven....
finally we have a new cooker and I gave this a go. The pic below shows half that's left, and the starter looks what I reckon a healthy starter should look like, it lives in an old curry takeaway carton and is called Linda in honour of the late great mother from Oxo.
The half a loaf is my second attempt, tasty, but too dense and undercooked in the middle, I think
I rushed my final rise and cooked too high for too long. my new oven goes to 260C with a fan, so even though I turned it down to 190 after 15 mins then I had to take it out in case the crust burned.
having another go tonight, I am using a sponge method, so half flour and all the starter and water has gone into a bowl tonight, I'll mix the rest of the flour in tomorrow am before work, then come home and get ready for a final prove and bake at night or first thing.
Thanks, one thing I'm had problems with is using poor quality flour (I have just found out about the difference between strong/standard flour, dur!), so my first few attempts were very cakey and heavy, recent attempts have been better using strong (i.e. high gluten) bread organic flour.
Plus Mrs P reckons I am overprooving the dough, the recipe I follow says make a sponge with all the water and starter, and half the flour, then leave all day, then add rest of flour, rest for 30 mins to "autolyse" then mix the rest in, knead, leave overnight or the rest of the day, kneading a couple of times, then proove for a couple of further couple of hours.
Definitely seems too long, the last time I did this (admitedly with normal plain flour) the entire structure of the dough prior to final had reduced to a sloppy mess, so I guess the yeast had just eaten up the gluten leaving it with zero structure, and it ended up baking a solid brick of a loaf with no rise. The kids were not impressed....
So I want to get to the point where I mix, leave overnight, knead, prove, then bake, all within about 12 hrs or so to achieve my ultimate aim of a nice, glossy, bubbly open crumb, with a crip crust.
I'll see how the next lot get on, I am getting progressively lighter, so I'll try it with a lower temp in the oven too to avoid the outside baking before the middle gets a chance to finish.
I'm quite keen to make a sourdough pizza base, what would people's thoughts on timings be for that?
Plus Mrs P reckons I am overprooving the dough, the recipe I follow says make a sponge with all the water and starter, and half the flour, then leave all day, then add rest of flour, rest for 30 mins to "autolyse" then mix the rest in, knead, leave overnight or the rest of the day, kneading a couple of times, then proove for a couple of further couple of hours.
Definitely seems too long, the last time I did this (admitedly with normal plain flour) the entire structure of the dough prior to final had reduced to a sloppy mess, so I guess the yeast had just eaten up the gluten leaving it with zero structure, and it ended up baking a solid brick of a loaf with no rise. The kids were not impressed....
So I want to get to the point where I mix, leave overnight, knead, prove, then bake, all within about 12 hrs or so to achieve my ultimate aim of a nice, glossy, bubbly open crumb, with a crip crust.
I'll see how the next lot get on, I am getting progressively lighter, so I'll try it with a lower temp in the oven too to avoid the outside baking before the middle gets a chance to finish.
I'm quite keen to make a sourdough pizza base, what would people's thoughts on timings be for that?
Boo152 said:
After much experimenting I now stick to 200degc (fan oven) all the way through the bake for mine.
I just vary timings depending how dark a crust I want, or how big the loaves are.
Not been doing any sourdough for a while, but for normal bread in fan oven I've found 10 mins at 200, turn it down to 160 for another 10, and then tip it out of the tin and give it another 10 minutes at 160 seems to be ideal for my standard 400g loaf.I just vary timings depending how dark a crust I want, or how big the loaves are.
Yes, I agree with Mrs P you are probably overproving.
Bear in mind I probably make larger quantities than most: i.e. 1.5kg flour, almost 1 1itre starter, around 1 litre water etc, and a big batch takes a bit longer to prove than a small one....
My timings:
I usually start my bread mix before I got to bed. All of the flour, oil and salt in. All of the starter in
Half the water in. Then stir in the bowl with a big wooden spoon, gradually trickling more water in until most of the dry flour is mixed (I dont always need all of the water, depending on humidity etc, but the amount you will require in yours will come with practice). I then knead the mix in the bowl for a few minutes before turning out on the floured worktop, and kneading for about another 10 minutes, adding very small amounts of flour as required until it no longer sticks to my hands or the worktop.
I then leave overnight to rise enough to be ready for knocking back and shaping (bit tricky in the summer cos it could takes only 4/5 hours before it's escaping out the bowl, so I have to be prepared to check it around 5am. Winter is a bit more relaxed as it can take 6 or 7 hours to be ready for shaping.
So once shaped and on the trays, depending on kitchen temperature, it will have risen back up and be ready for the oven in between 2 and 4 hours.
So thats total proving/rising time of between 7 and 11 hours depending on kitchen temperature/time of year. Add on (say) another hour for the mixing, tin greasing, oven time, etc gives you a max time of 12 hours from starting off to turning out the finished loaves. And if you are working with smaller quantities, as mentioned earlier, 1st prove times will be quicker.
PS if I'm making pizza, at the point when I shape the loaves, I hive off a lump of the dough in an oiled polybag in the fridge, and then take it out of the fridge about an hour before we want the pizza, flatten it out, add the sauce, filling, cheese etc, then once its back up to room temp and risen its ready to bake. Pizzas only take about 10 minutes to bake. Hope this helps!
Bear in mind I probably make larger quantities than most: i.e. 1.5kg flour, almost 1 1itre starter, around 1 litre water etc, and a big batch takes a bit longer to prove than a small one....
My timings:
I usually start my bread mix before I got to bed. All of the flour, oil and salt in. All of the starter in
Half the water in. Then stir in the bowl with a big wooden spoon, gradually trickling more water in until most of the dry flour is mixed (I dont always need all of the water, depending on humidity etc, but the amount you will require in yours will come with practice). I then knead the mix in the bowl for a few minutes before turning out on the floured worktop, and kneading for about another 10 minutes, adding very small amounts of flour as required until it no longer sticks to my hands or the worktop.
I then leave overnight to rise enough to be ready for knocking back and shaping (bit tricky in the summer cos it could takes only 4/5 hours before it's escaping out the bowl, so I have to be prepared to check it around 5am. Winter is a bit more relaxed as it can take 6 or 7 hours to be ready for shaping.
So once shaped and on the trays, depending on kitchen temperature, it will have risen back up and be ready for the oven in between 2 and 4 hours.
So thats total proving/rising time of between 7 and 11 hours depending on kitchen temperature/time of year. Add on (say) another hour for the mixing, tin greasing, oven time, etc gives you a max time of 12 hours from starting off to turning out the finished loaves. And if you are working with smaller quantities, as mentioned earlier, 1st prove times will be quicker.
PS if I'm making pizza, at the point when I shape the loaves, I hive off a lump of the dough in an oiled polybag in the fridge, and then take it out of the fridge about an hour before we want the pizza, flatten it out, add the sauce, filling, cheese etc, then once its back up to room temp and risen its ready to bake. Pizzas only take about 10 minutes to bake. Hope this helps!
prand said:
So I want to get to the point where I mix, leave overnight, knead, prove, then bake, all within about 12 hrs or so to achieve my ultimate aim of a nice, glossy, bubbly open crumb, with a crip crust.
Try this recipe and guide - http://blog.bakerybits.co.uk/friday-night-sourdoug... It's quick, easy and very effective. Make sure with your starter you don't leave it any more than 8 hours after being refreshed (I use mine 1-2 hours after refreshing).Folding the dough is to develop the gluten and replaces kneading. People are surprised how effective and simple folding dough actually is.
Most artisan bakeries make their sourdoughs a similar way.
I would also highly recommend getting a baking dome or casserole pot. The moisture in the dough will create steam in the dome/pot and give you a great crust.
AndyHCZ said:
Try this recipe and guide - http://blog.bakerybits.co.uk/friday-night-sourdoug... It's quick, easy and very effective. Make sure with your starter you don't leave it any more than 8 hours after being refreshed (I use mine 1-2 hours after refreshing).
Folding the dough is to develop the gluten and replaces kneading. People are surprised how effective and simple folding dough actually is.
Most artisan bakeries make their sourdoughs a similar way.
I would also highly recommend getting a baking dome or casserole pot. The moisture in the dough will create steam in the dome/pot and give you a great crust.
funnily enough, I'm good at crusts!Folding the dough is to develop the gluten and replaces kneading. People are surprised how effective and simple folding dough actually is.
Most artisan bakeries make their sourdoughs a similar way.
I would also highly recommend getting a baking dome or casserole pot. The moisture in the dough will create steam in the dome/pot and give you a great crust.
I get two of your points above, don't use stale starter, as you won't get as good a rise, and folding in the bowl seems a much tidier and less invasive thing to do too, kneading doesn't seem neccessary as the gluten has plenty of time to develop without kneading.
since I changed to decent flour i'm getting much better results, and getting to the texture I'm after,with some discernable air holes.
All I need to do is get my timings right so I don't over prove. because I keep going off and doing other jobs for half a day, I keep ending up with dough with a constituency that spreads across the baking tray during proving which although rises pretty decently, is still a bit too flat at a couple of inches high max. Tasty though!
oh, and
to the loaves above! Apologies for upside down shots, phone is playing up
Woops - misread your comment about the dough spreading after shaping.
Shaping is quite tricky, particularly with high hydration doughs.
Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIjV6s-0cA
After the bulk fermentation, you want to do an initial shaping and then let the dough rest for 30 mins. You can then do your final shaping - if the dough still doesn't hold its shape, go back to the initial stage again.
Shaping is quite tricky, particularly with high hydration doughs.
Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIjV6s-0cA
After the bulk fermentation, you want to do an initial shaping and then let the dough rest for 30 mins. You can then do your final shaping - if the dough still doesn't hold its shape, go back to the initial stage again.
Edited by AndyHCZ on Sunday 16th November 21:08
Sorry to bring sadness to 'PH but I received an email Sunday of the passing of Boo152 (Tom) on the 15th of December.
I got to know Tom through the Porsche forum and our mutual love of all things 993 and emails to each other after though we never met.
From these though, I could tell he seemed a very nice fella.
I was just searching through his profile for some info possibly for his family and came across this thread, his last, and thought you should know in case of expecting replies etc from him.
I got to know Tom through the Porsche forum and our mutual love of all things 993 and emails to each other after though we never met.
From these though, I could tell he seemed a very nice fella.
I was just searching through his profile for some info possibly for his family and came across this thread, his last, and thought you should know in case of expecting replies etc from him.
Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 5th January 22:37
Gassing Station | Food, Drink & Restaurants | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff