Sourdough breadmaking
Discussion
NormalWisdom said:
OK - So I cheated a little and got the bread-making machine to do the kneading
I think the mixture is a little wet but let's wait and see
In the bowl now ready for an overnight rise
Only did a 500g batch
Yes looks a little bit wet Normal. What you do need to take into account is the amount of water within the starter. I think the mixture is a little wet but let's wait and see
In the bowl now ready for an overnight rise
Only did a 500g batch
As mentioned before, the liquid consistency of the starter itself is not critical, providing it is active.
I always start my dough by adding the starter, oil and salt first, and stir this all up before adding the water.
I then put in half my water, stir again, and gradually add more water as I knead in the bowl.
At the point when I stop adding water, the dough is usually feeling stiff but is still quite sticky.
Once you turn out onto the floured worktop and start kneading in earnest, as you work it, you will start to feel if it needs either a splash more water or a sprinkle more flour.
Regarding instructions to weigh everything precisely(including the water) However, the volume/weight of water needed will depend on the humidity in your kitchen, how dry your flour is, how wet your starter is, etc, so there really is no substitute for learning how the dough should feel.
NormalWisdom said:
As it was quite wet, I baked for 25 minutes at 175c, turned out of tin and baked for another 5 minutes. Worked very well!! And the taste is superb, and toasted is totally orgasmic!!
Yep wetter mixes still make good bread as youve discovered. Also if you add some extra oil as well before baking makes bloody good ciabbata type bread if its a bit wetter than normal.Keep practising!
Edited by Boo152 on Monday 1st April 15:50
MagicalTrevor said:
I can't work out whether my starter is ok or not? If had a few bubbles on the top but nothing exciting. It looks like this 1 week in:
It's sat on a shelf in the kitchen in a plastic container with the lid loosely on the top I.e. not sealed
Is it ok?
That looks fine for a week old. Time to wack it in the fridge, keep feeding for another week by which time it should be ready to use. It's sat on a shelf in the kitchen in a plastic container with the lid loosely on the top I.e. not sealed
Is it ok?
After its finally feed before use (about half a day before you need it), leave it out on the worktop.
jmorgan said:
Think I got over confident. End result was too moist. Starter in the fridge for the time being. Might be a week today for the next go.
Keep at it Jeff. Practice will make perfect.PS: just got back from a long weekend away, took my starter and flour with me and fed daily!
Obsessive or what!?
Today's bake. As my speciallity this week thought I'd go for 'Un Baggette'.
Le Baggette turned out a bit underbaked (as it went in after the loaves), but breakfast was on the table by then so had to eat it anyway!
Chaps - Dont forget to set your recorders for Paul Hollywoods bread prog on Monday @ 8:30pm BBC2 - He's featuring Sourdough bread this time.
Le Baggette turned out a bit underbaked (as it went in after the loaves), but breakfast was on the table by then so had to eat it anyway!
Chaps - Dont forget to set your recorders for Paul Hollywoods bread prog on Monday @ 8:30pm BBC2 - He's featuring Sourdough bread this time.
Happens to mine occasionally, no effect on the taste so it doesnt worry me.
Possible causes: Drying out and 'skinning' during the second rise?
That would create surface tension as the heat from within the bread tries to escape theres nowhere for it to go so hence the split.
Dough too wet: So rather than rise straight up it flows sideways at first, then as it rises further, the side of the tin is holding it fast, so again something has to give.
Possible solutions: Make deeper slashes - that would then create a point of least resistance. Also make sure your tins are very well greased so the loaf isnt sticking.
I think also the trick is to get them in the oven whilst still on the rise (before the starter has 'exhausted itself')
Some bakers advocate covering with clingfilm or a tea towel during the prove. Others say putting water or ice cubes at the bottom of the oven to create steam makes a better loaf, but never tried either of that myself.
Possible causes: Drying out and 'skinning' during the second rise?
That would create surface tension as the heat from within the bread tries to escape theres nowhere for it to go so hence the split.
Dough too wet: So rather than rise straight up it flows sideways at first, then as it rises further, the side of the tin is holding it fast, so again something has to give.
Possible solutions: Make deeper slashes - that would then create a point of least resistance. Also make sure your tins are very well greased so the loaf isnt sticking.
I think also the trick is to get them in the oven whilst still on the rise (before the starter has 'exhausted itself')
Some bakers advocate covering with clingfilm or a tea towel during the prove. Others say putting water or ice cubes at the bottom of the oven to create steam makes a better loaf, but never tried either of that myself.
Hmmm, having watched Paul Hollywood's sourdough special last night I have mixed feelings - he seems more Showman than Chef these days - goes with the territory I suppose.
The Sourdough feature has been built up to be something special throughout the previews, but disappointed on the night - cant say I learnt anything new from it.
The Sourdough feature has been built up to be something special throughout the previews, but disappointed on the night - cant say I learnt anything new from it.
MagicalTrevor said:
Is it alright to leave it to prove for 12-13hrs or should I really be aiming for 6-7hrs?
I normally start mine off around 11:00pm - then leave to prove overnight.The speed of the rise varies from week to week, Friday morning for example, I nipped down just to check it @ 6:00am and it was flowing out of the bowl like lava, so had to deal with it immediately.
The previous weeks batch took till 9:00am to be ready for knockback.
Yes I agree about the consistancy.
It's a fine balance between being too wet and too dry. The starter itself is adding liquid to the mix, and will vary from week to week according to how active it is when making the dough.
I set todays batch off at 6.00am and it took until about 2.30pm before it was ready for knockback, then took another 3hrs before it was ready for the oven.
The loaves have risen fine though, just took a bit longer than normal.
So the message is - keep at it, you'll get there.
It's a fine balance between being too wet and too dry. The starter itself is adding liquid to the mix, and will vary from week to week according to how active it is when making the dough.
I set todays batch off at 6.00am and it took until about 2.30pm before it was ready for knockback, then took another 3hrs before it was ready for the oven.
The loaves have risen fine though, just took a bit longer than normal.
So the message is - keep at it, you'll get there.
Any kind of flour will start a culture sooner or later.
The reason I use a 50/50 mix of rye/strong white for my starter is purely down to the flavour it imparts to the bread.
There is also a theory that (due to its unprocessed nature) - stoneground rye flour has a greater content of natural live yeasts/bacterias - thus getting the culture off to a quicker start.
The reason I use a 50/50 mix of rye/strong white for my starter is purely down to the flavour it imparts to the bread.
There is also a theory that (due to its unprocessed nature) - stoneground rye flour has a greater content of natural live yeasts/bacterias - thus getting the culture off to a quicker start.
Edited by Boo152 on Friday 3rd May 01:12
There you go, a cut loaf 
Some pointers to bear in mind.
1) If the dough is still sticky when you put it back the bowl you may not be kneading for long enough. As a general rule, you should knead 'til the dough is no longer sticking to your hands or to the worktop.
2) The larger the loaf, the longer the baking time, and the longer the baking time the lower the temperature. Each oven is different, so you will need to experiment with your temperatures and times to get the right results.
3) Commercial Sourdough? Pah! No such thing! My understanding is that 'Ciabbata' i.e the bread with the big airholes in it, was invented in the 80s to sell to the UK chattering classes at vastly inflated prices! Marks & Spencer & Waitrose love selling you expensive processed air rather than proper bread!
Some pointers to bear in mind.
1) If the dough is still sticky when you put it back the bowl you may not be kneading for long enough. As a general rule, you should knead 'til the dough is no longer sticking to your hands or to the worktop.
2) The larger the loaf, the longer the baking time, and the longer the baking time the lower the temperature. Each oven is different, so you will need to experiment with your temperatures and times to get the right results.
3) Commercial Sourdough? Pah! No such thing! My understanding is that 'Ciabbata' i.e the bread with the big airholes in it, was invented in the 80s to sell to the UK chattering classes at vastly inflated prices! Marks & Spencer & Waitrose love selling you expensive processed air rather than proper bread!
We usually eat one loaf fresh (always taste best when just baked!) then, when fully cool cut the rest of the loaves in half, polybag each half individually and freeze. Reason for halving is between the 2 of us thats about our normal daily consumption.
Take out of the freezer a couple of hours before you need it, or if you forget - microwave from frozen for a couple of 30 second bursts, and it will be sliceable.
Take out of the freezer a couple of hours before you need it, or if you forget - microwave from frozen for a couple of 30 second bursts, and it will be sliceable.
JRM said:
My next attempt is going to be a half rye starter with all white flour as I'm thinking that might give me the best taste - but we'll see.
Need to finish my first attempt at croissants first!
Thats exactly the mix I use -Need to finish my first attempt at croissants first!
Starter =50/50 rye/strong white
Flour =100% strong white
Let us have photos of your croissants when done!
Yep you are being a bit impatient Jeff!
My overnight rise normally takes between 6 and 8 hours depending on room temperature and how active the starter is. I would say that it has normally [MORE THAN DOUBLED] in size by the time I knock back, in fact its often overflowing out of the bowl.
Once knocked back and in the tins it will take between 2 and 4 hours to have doubled in size again, dependant on room temp, so yes, I think you are expecting results too fast!
Sourdough bread may be easy to make but fast food it aint!
My overnight rise normally takes between 6 and 8 hours depending on room temperature and how active the starter is. I would say that it has normally [MORE THAN DOUBLED] in size by the time I knock back, in fact its often overflowing out of the bowl.
Once knocked back and in the tins it will take between 2 and 4 hours to have doubled in size again, dependant on room temp, so yes, I think you are expecting results too fast!
Sourdough bread may be easy to make but fast food it aint!
Slow is better.
In my opinion the addition of grapes, raisons, etc or anything else that contains yeasts not naturally in the flour itself is counter productive.
You may find if adding grapes it starts off quicker, but this is probably due to the suger content within the grapes etc anyway, and ultimately the yeasts on the grapes may fight with the naturally occuring flour yeasts.
Providing you are using some good quality stoneground flour within your starter, [I use a 50/50 mix of stoneground organic rye and ordinary supermarket strong white flour] all you need to add to this is water.
There will be enough natural yeasts present in the flour mix to start the ferment, and remember, the aim is to have a slowly developing starter to build up that lovely full flavour/aroma in good sourdough bread.
Also, as soon as your culture is bubbling strongly (by about 3 days) you need to move it to the fridge in order to slow it down and develop those full flavours.
So for this purpose, you need something like a plastic tupperware container which can sit permanently in the fridge, feeding it regularly, then taken out half a day before you make each bread batch.
You can usually start baking in about a week to 10 days, and the starter will still continue to improve for a few weeks as it slowly develops its flavour, and each bread batch wil get better and better.
Its then just a case of practising with oven temperatures/timings to develop your prefered loaf.
Easy Peasy!
In my opinion the addition of grapes, raisons, etc or anything else that contains yeasts not naturally in the flour itself is counter productive.
You may find if adding grapes it starts off quicker, but this is probably due to the suger content within the grapes etc anyway, and ultimately the yeasts on the grapes may fight with the naturally occuring flour yeasts.
Providing you are using some good quality stoneground flour within your starter, [I use a 50/50 mix of stoneground organic rye and ordinary supermarket strong white flour] all you need to add to this is water.
There will be enough natural yeasts present in the flour mix to start the ferment, and remember, the aim is to have a slowly developing starter to build up that lovely full flavour/aroma in good sourdough bread.
Also, as soon as your culture is bubbling strongly (by about 3 days) you need to move it to the fridge in order to slow it down and develop those full flavours.
So for this purpose, you need something like a plastic tupperware container which can sit permanently in the fridge, feeding it regularly, then taken out half a day before you make each bread batch.
You can usually start baking in about a week to 10 days, and the starter will still continue to improve for a few weeks as it slowly develops its flavour, and each bread batch wil get better and better.
Its then just a case of practising with oven temperatures/timings to develop your prefered loaf.
Easy Peasy!
Edited by Boo152 on Thursday 4th July 13:07
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