Japanese 'folded' kitchen knives

[scottri]

A couple more shots with some cheapo knives to give you an idea of scale. 40mm chopping board and a lime!

Feels nicely weighted to me, although I think that's quite a personal choice. I suppose a bigger handle would be an improvement but its not unusually small.

[santona1937]

Japanese knives, the good ones are very expensive £90 for a chefs knife is just about a starting point.
IMHO not worth it.
All the major European brands make knives just as good a quality.
I Tried Global- a popular brand amongst Chefs- could not find a happy place with it. Now I use it at home and not work.

[uncinqsix]

santona1937 said:

Japanese knives, the good ones are very expensive £90 for a chefs knife is just about a starting point.
IMHO not worth it.
All the major European brands make knives just as good a quality.
I Tried Global- a popular brand amongst Chefs- could not find a happy place with it. Now I use it at home and not work.

If you're basing you're opinion of Japanese knives on using a Global, you're a long way off getting the full picture. They are in no way representative of Japanese knives.

Japanese knives generally have harder steel and thinner blades than Euros. They are lighter and better balanced. They hold their edge longer. However, they are more prone to edge damage if you're a bit cack-handed, and require a little more effort to sharpen. Overall, IMO, Japanese knives outperform Euros by quite a margin. I have a good Henckels chef's knife, and it feels like a mallet in comparison with my Japanese ones - there's simply no comparison.

In terms of price, you can get a get a Misono Moly 8" chef's knife for less than £60, which will be more than a match for any mainstream euro.

[Coneyhurst Blue]

Thanks to this thread I am now lighter in the wallet.
Looking forward to my christmas present arriving, just need to stock up on tomatoes !

[Tanguero]

Coneyhurst Blue said:

Thanks to this thread I am now lighter in the wallet.
Looking forward to my christmas present arriving, just need to stock up on tomatoes !

What did you get?

[Coneyhurst Blue]

Tanguero said:

What did you get?

I like Sushi - this will hopefully do the job.
If it is as nice as I hope it to be I might go back for its little brothers and sisters !

[Tanguero]

Nice choice!!!

[Crusoe]

Another happy customer of http://japanesechefsknife.com/

Never has like a hot knife through butter analogy been so correct got some hiromoto damascus blades, lovely objects to use and a little discount plus free delivery for buying a few.

[richwig83]

One thing I meant to ask... What about import duty?

[Crusoe]

Not paid any on the ones I was sent; all Japanese writing on the outside and scans as a standard kitchen knife which I would guess don't tend to need duty paying. No prices in the paper work sent out and marked as Chef's tools.

[Odie]

I really don't get this thing for Japanese knives, the reason the japs folded steel was because the steel in japan was inferior and they had to do it so it would hold its edge, the material a blade is made from has no bearing on its sharpness, only its ability to hold an edge and its ease of sharpening, in a kitchen environment I cant see either of these factors being an issue so any decent stainless steel knife (304,316) with the right balance and comfortable handle will be perfect in all kitchen applications.

Western steels are on par with Japanese steels in a lot of cases.

Your basically just spending a lot of money because of their marketing.

Sorry

[Crusoe]

If you had used a good one you wouldn't say that. Blade tends to be much thinner with a higher carbon content that makes it hold an edge better but also more brittle than the European equivalent.

[Odie]

Crusoe said:

If you had used a good one you wouldn't say that. Blade tends to be much thinner with a higher carbon content that makes it hold an edge better but also more brittle than the European equivalent.

What is the go to beginner Japanese kitchen knife? I will buy one and give it a try. I can see the advantage of a thinner blade in the kitchen.

[Crusoe]

Odie said:

What is the go to beginner Japanese kitchen knife? I will buy one and give it a try.

A 160mm Santoku with a 2mm blade thickness would be a good place to start, something like a Hiromoto Tenmi-Jyuraku Aogami Super Series but there are several others that are similar and around the same price.


http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.h...

[Tanguero]

Odie said:

I really don't get this thing for Japanese knives, the reason the japs folded steel was because the steel in japan was inferior and they had to do it so it would hold its edge, the material a blade is made from has no bearing on its sharpness, only its ability to hold an edge and its ease of sharpening, in a kitchen environment I cant see either of these factors being an issue so any decent stainless steel knife (304,316) with the right balance and comfortable handle will be perfect in all kitchen applications.

Western steels are on par with Japanese steels in a lot of cases.

Your basically just spending a lot of money because of their marketing.

Sorry

You might want to do a bit more research on metallurgy, knife making in general, and the history of blade forging in Japan before spouting such complete nonsense.

Sorry.

[Odie]

Tanguero said:

You might want to do a bit more research on metallurgy, knife making in general, and the history of blade forging in Japan before spouting such complete nonsense.

Sorry.

I know a great deal about metallurgy (that degree in mechanical engineering I have kinda helps) and knife making.. No need to troll/flame me, I have an open mind on this subject, BUT sharpness is not a factor of the metal used.

ETA - The knife that's just been linked as a beginner knife while a thing of beauty isn't I don't believe a 'folded' steel its laminated.

Edited by Odie on Tuesday 17th December 16:00

[Tanguero]

Odie said:

I know a great deal about metallurgy (that degree in mechanical engineering I have kinda helps) and knife making.. No need to troll/flame me, I have an open mind on this subject, BUT sharpness is not a factor of the metal used.

ETA - The knife that's just been linked as a beginner knife while a thing of beauty isn't I don't believe a 'folded' steel its laminated.

Edited by Odie on Tuesday 17th December 16:00

No trolling or flaming intended but the majority of your post is blatant rubbish. I am not starting a willy waving contest about qualifications but my metallurgy knowledge is more than adequate to tell you that you are wrong. Consider the grain size... Have you ever compared cutting edges under a SEM? I have and the difference in sharpness achievable with different steels is clearly measurable.

[Crusoe]

Odie said:

ETA - The knife that's just been linked as a beginner knife while a thing of beauty isn't I don't believe a 'folded' steel its laminated.

Edited by Odie on Tuesday 17th December 16:00

Feel free to pay more for the folded equivalent with a Damascus blade, but I wouldn't expect there to be much if any difference other than the esthetics. Both going to be the same shape and design with a similar metallurgy as already mentioned. [also a mechanical engineer ]

[richwig83]

SAIUN Damascus Santoku ordered. If it's no good ill just sell it.

[uncinqsix]

Odie said:

I really don't get this thing for Japanese knives, the reason the japs folded steel was because the steel in japan was inferior and they had to do it so it would hold its edge, the material a blade is made from has no bearing on its sharpness, only its ability to hold an edge and its ease of sharpening, in a kitchen environment I cant see either of these factors being an issue so any decent stainless steel knife (304,316) with the right balance and comfortable handle will be perfect in all kitchen applications.

Western steels are on par with Japanese steels in a lot of cases.

Your basically just spending a lot of money because of their marketing.

Sorry

On the modern knives, the folded cladding is largely decorative. However, the steel in the core (and the steel that the non-cladded ones are made of) is exceptional. The Japanese typically harden their knives to a higher degree than the Europeans (to 60+ HRC as opposed to 54-56 HRC), so the steel has to be able to work with that while maintaining toughness. I suspect you'd struggle to get 300 series stainless to behave itself at 60+ HRC. The extra hardness and toughness means they can sharpen at a more acute angle (sharper) while still maintaining good edge holding ability.

The steel used are often carbon tool steels (Hitachi 'White' and 'Super Blue'), along some very good stainlesses (VG-10). They also often use Swedish carbon steels, which are excellent, and some modern powdered tool steels (Cowry-X, ZDP-289).

Edited by uncinqsix on Tuesday 17th December 17:41