Are you concerned about our pubs ?
Discussion
A genuine question.
I have a mate who is a great campaigner for saving pubs under threat from greedy developers and large supermarket chains, and I must admit I didn't realise before how many pubwhat'se being lost, around 28 a week.
So what's your view ?
I feel it is a major loss to our heritage when pubs, many over a century old are allowed to be demolished or turned into an express shop, granted, not every single pub is now a viable business, but it is no longer just quiet pubs with little trade being targeted.
I have a mate who is a great campaigner for saving pubs under threat from greedy developers and large supermarket chains, and I must admit I didn't realise before how many pubwhat'se being lost, around 28 a week.
So what's your view ?
I feel it is a major loss to our heritage when pubs, many over a century old are allowed to be demolished or turned into an express shop, granted, not every single pub is now a viable business, but it is no longer just quiet pubs with little trade being targeted.
rossw46 said:
A genuine question.
I have a mate who is a great campaigner for saving pubs under threat from greedy developers and large supermarket chains, and I must admit I didn't realise before how many pubwhat'se being lost, around 28 a week.
So what's your view ?
I feel it is a major loss to our heritage when pubs, many over a century old are allowed to be demolished or turned into an express shop, granted, not every single pub is now a viable business, but it is no longer just quiet pubs with little trade being targeted.
I'm wondering where you've been, the rot set in 10yrs ago and many have already gone.I have a mate who is a great campaigner for saving pubs under threat from greedy developers and large supermarket chains, and I must admit I didn't realise before how many pubwhat'se being lost, around 28 a week.
So what's your view ?
I feel it is a major loss to our heritage when pubs, many over a century old are allowed to be demolished or turned into an express shop, granted, not every single pub is now a viable business, but it is no longer just quiet pubs with little trade being targeted.
There was some (possibly) good news this week (you'll have to Google it for greater detail) when the rules about who they could buy their beer from were changed meaning hopefully better prices.
Edit: No I'm not concerned. It's a shame, but is the changing face of Britain like the closing of Libraries, Newsagents/corner shops, local bakeries etc.
Edited by 226bhp on Friday 21st November 20:55
It may be different in cities to rural areas, but the only pubs that have closed near me have been the st ones that nobody went to. At the same time, some fantastic new cask ale pubs and breweries have opened up in the last two years - the quality of beer available is an order of magnitude better than it was even 3-5 years ago.
There are so many factors that have killed the country pubs, not limited to the following:
1. Tied to breweries (as mentioned) - Pub HAS to pay 120 a barrel - you can buy the same barrell from the same brewery at a wholesalers for 80 (Pubs often fitted with flow meters to prevent landlords purchasing the brewery's beer from a wholesaler).
2. No smoking ban. People who didn't smoke and didn't visit pubs because of the smoking had it banned. And they still don't go to the pubs.
3. Supermarkets cutting prices as you can imagine.
4. Modern life/General lack of time - people don't work locally and spend the night in the pub - poeple work longer hours and commute further especially in villages
5. Pubs providing crap service and crap food.
6. Massive rent increases.
7. Minimum wage costs.
8. Health and saftey cost of compliance.
9. Red tape costs.
10. Business Taxes increasing
All of which means running a quiet country pub is just not viable nowadays.
1. Tied to breweries (as mentioned) - Pub HAS to pay 120 a barrel - you can buy the same barrell from the same brewery at a wholesalers for 80 (Pubs often fitted with flow meters to prevent landlords purchasing the brewery's beer from a wholesaler).
2. No smoking ban. People who didn't smoke and didn't visit pubs because of the smoking had it banned. And they still don't go to the pubs.
3. Supermarkets cutting prices as you can imagine.
4. Modern life/General lack of time - people don't work locally and spend the night in the pub - poeple work longer hours and commute further especially in villages
5. Pubs providing crap service and crap food.
6. Massive rent increases.
7. Minimum wage costs.
8. Health and saftey cost of compliance.
9. Red tape costs.
10. Business Taxes increasing
All of which means running a quiet country pub is just not viable nowadays.
We've got 2 pubs in our village, one owned by a big chain, the other by a small chain. Big chain one was great when they had a decent manager, but their policy now seems to be to change the manager every 3 months with a worse manager each time and with them shoddy service which means no one drinks there often.
Second smaller chain pub used to be owned by a resident in the village and was a real hub of the community had an annual beer festival/funday, welcoming, great food and reasonably priced drinks packed out most of the time. Now it's owned by a chain, the foods expensive & crap and its £4.80 for a pint of Guiness and £6+ for a small glass of wine, and surprise surprise no one drinks/eats in there anymore. So in some ways pubs are their own worse enemies, or maybe its a plot by breweries/chains to make them unappealing as pubs so they can shut them down and flog them to developers. Sad really as I used to really enjoy popping into either for a pint and a chat, now it just feels like a rip off, and if I want to pay those prices I'd rather go up town for the evening.
Second smaller chain pub used to be owned by a resident in the village and was a real hub of the community had an annual beer festival/funday, welcoming, great food and reasonably priced drinks packed out most of the time. Now it's owned by a chain, the foods expensive & crap and its £4.80 for a pint of Guiness and £6+ for a small glass of wine, and surprise surprise no one drinks/eats in there anymore. So in some ways pubs are their own worse enemies, or maybe its a plot by breweries/chains to make them unappealing as pubs so they can shut them down and flog them to developers. Sad really as I used to really enjoy popping into either for a pint and a chat, now it just feels like a rip off, and if I want to pay those prices I'd rather go up town for the evening.
I think you got it spot on.
Brother D said:
There are so many factors that have killed the country pubs, not limited to the following:
1. Tied to breweries (as mentioned) - Pub HAS to pay 120 a barrel - you can buy the same barrell from the same brewery at a wholesalers for 80 (Pubs often fitted with flow meters to prevent landlords purchasing the brewery's beer from a wholesaler).
2. No smoking ban. People who didn't smoke and didn't visit pubs because of the smoking had it banned. And they still don't go to the pubs.
3. Supermarkets cutting prices as you can imagine.
4. Modern life/General lack of time - people don't work locally and spend the night in the pub - poeple work longer hours and commute further especially in villages
5. Pubs providing crap service and crap food.
6. Massive rent increases.
7. Minimum wage costs.
8. Health and saftey cost of compliance.
9. Red tape costs.
10. Business Taxes increasing
I think you got it spot on.
All of which means running a quiet country pub is just not viable nowadays.
1. Tied to breweries (as mentioned) - Pub HAS to pay 120 a barrel - you can buy the same barrell from the same brewery at a wholesalers for 80 (Pubs often fitted with flow meters to prevent landlords purchasing the brewery's beer from a wholesaler).
2. No smoking ban. People who didn't smoke and didn't visit pubs because of the smoking had it banned. And they still don't go to the pubs.
3. Supermarkets cutting prices as you can imagine.
4. Modern life/General lack of time - people don't work locally and spend the night in the pub - poeple work longer hours and commute further especially in villages
5. Pubs providing crap service and crap food.
6. Massive rent increases.
7. Minimum wage costs.
8. Health and saftey cost of compliance.
9. Red tape costs.
10. Business Taxes increasing
I think you got it spot on.
All of which means running a quiet country pub is just not viable nowadays.
I know about the vote in favour of scrapping the tie-in, my mate is a pub protection officer for CAMRA and was there on Tuesday.
My MP voted against it annoyingly. I can't help but feel that some of the pubs you've said are crap weren't helped by this tie-in, and perhaps could/can change after this change is implemented - the greedy pubcos have contributed towards this no end, many pub landlords earn well below minimum wage because of them.
I wish some of the pubs round where I live would wake up to the brewing revolution that is happening, and get some decent beer in, nonetheless, I'll support them until they do !
My MP voted against it annoyingly. I can't help but feel that some of the pubs you've said are crap weren't helped by this tie-in, and perhaps could/can change after this change is implemented - the greedy pubcos have contributed towards this no end, many pub landlords earn well below minimum wage because of them.
I wish some of the pubs round where I live would wake up to the brewing revolution that is happening, and get some decent beer in, nonetheless, I'll support them until they do !
The brewery 'tie' means it is possible for pub companies to offer a tenancy for lower up-front costs. What the licensee does with it after that is up to them. £20k with a tie, or £200k without? It is extremely difficult nowadays to make money in *any* 'retail' business unless you've either deep pockets, or the Bank of Mum and Dad on standby.
The government should reduce the tax on beer sold in pubs so that it is a fair amount cheaper to drink in a pub than it is to get beer from the supermarket. It would encourage people to go to the pub, and revitalise the local community in the process, while taking profit away from Tesco and the like. Pubs would be booming, and the government wouldn't lose out in the long term as the tax will be lower but there will be increased sales which will offset that.
As eluded to in previous points I think that is many ways the pub industry is seeing a major revival. There is a chasm between the well run pubs, good beer and excellent food, and the struggling ones that typically offer a 'race to the bottom' offering of awful food and cheap booze.
The underlying problem with the industry is the pub co's broken and outdated business model that is (arguably) borderline illegal.
The underlying problem with the industry is the pub co's broken and outdated business model that is (arguably) borderline illegal.
Brother D said:
2. No smoking ban. People who didn't smoke and didn't visit pubs because of the smoking had it banned. And they still don't go to the pubs.
This is nonsense IMO, it might not have helped some of the crap pubs but allowed vast numbers to diversify (ie do half decent food).The recession and general lifestyle changes had a far greater effect.
King said:
The whole of Worthing smells of old men and urine. How do the micropubs keep the smell out?
Oi. I resemble that location. As said, a bunch of them died off here, but they were all the dumps you wouldn't set foot in. Those still going make a big effort with food, music & the like & you don't have to piss about at 20mph to get here either. Viva Worthing.Besides, it's a shift in the market. That's what they do. Choice opens up, people make decisions, there are winners & losers & the losers are to quote Withnail, the pubs that persist with being a sulphur-stained, nicotine-yellowed, fly-blown lung. Its landlord was a retired alcoholic with military pretensions and a complexion like the inside of a teapot.
Edited by Abagnale on Sunday 23 November 08:55
I was amazed driving through Southend last week, they've recently knocked down an old shop to build a massive pub. Had to scroll through the years on google streetview to convince myself that it had happened, bucking the trend
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5555095,0.707621...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5555095,0.707621...
A good pub, in my experience, is one run by an individual owner, not a chain, the chains are only interested in the moment, the death of the pub started a lot longer ago than you suppose, the introduction of drink driving, fully warranted, was the initial step, then the pubs started selling food to get the wives in.
The chains saw this and started to buy up and the move to the full 3 course meal reduced the appeal to the serious drinker, I am sure many of the oldtimers here will remember Watneys red barrel ste, and many others of the ilk, there was a resurgence of a couple of pubs in my area who were near enough to the local suburbs to turn the wives into eager participants when lunches were served.
Of course the miners strike and other events through the eighties and nineties were not conducive to real pub life but CAMERA did bring some relief in some areas, but the opening up of the internal structure of many pubs: to crowd more people in, took away the traditional ambience.
The introduction of foreign beers did help, but I should point out the subsequent UK licensing of the same did mean a step backwards- I really miss the old Pils, further nails in the coughing lid was the smoking ban, to a degree terminal for many "real pubs".
Funny that I find that many pubs/hostelries in Europe have completely ignored the requirement, or provided a smoke room, remember those in the sixties with a family room a snug and best room, far more user friendly than the majority we have now.
The introduction of the "open all hours" was to my mind a retrograde step, but one must move with the times!!
Now we have 'pubs" and I use the term loosely only open on a friday and Saturday with the simple aim of getting as much booze down the necks of the customer as possible, while caring nothing for the social aspect that was the center of most villages, towns and cities.
End of old fart reminiscing and whingeing-carry on.
The chains saw this and started to buy up and the move to the full 3 course meal reduced the appeal to the serious drinker, I am sure many of the oldtimers here will remember Watneys red barrel ste, and many others of the ilk, there was a resurgence of a couple of pubs in my area who were near enough to the local suburbs to turn the wives into eager participants when lunches were served.
Of course the miners strike and other events through the eighties and nineties were not conducive to real pub life but CAMERA did bring some relief in some areas, but the opening up of the internal structure of many pubs: to crowd more people in, took away the traditional ambience.
The introduction of foreign beers did help, but I should point out the subsequent UK licensing of the same did mean a step backwards- I really miss the old Pils, further nails in the coughing lid was the smoking ban, to a degree terminal for many "real pubs".
Funny that I find that many pubs/hostelries in Europe have completely ignored the requirement, or provided a smoke room, remember those in the sixties with a family room a snug and best room, far more user friendly than the majority we have now.
The introduction of the "open all hours" was to my mind a retrograde step, but one must move with the times!!
Now we have 'pubs" and I use the term loosely only open on a friday and Saturday with the simple aim of getting as much booze down the necks of the customer as possible, while caring nothing for the social aspect that was the center of most villages, towns and cities.
End of old fart reminiscing and whingeing-carry on.
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