Wine - Where's the Spending Sweet Spot
Discussion
As with many things in life, as you spend more, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
How much it is worth you spending on wine, is of course dependent upon how much you can afford (and I suppose the quantity that you wish to drink). But in the past I have been guilty of bulk buying OKish wines from the supermarket as it's on special offer, rather than being a bit more discerning over what I enjoy. I'll happily pick up a case of Castillo de Diablo Cab Sauv for £5 a bottle and enjoy drinking it, but perhaps because of this, I've been missing out on some great wines if I were to stretch the budget.
The thing is, I can afford more, and so have concluded that I now will push the boat out a little.
But I have never tried any really fine wine, and worry that if I were to spend too much I would be destined to be disappointed. My conclusion is that for every step increase in wine quality requires a doubling in the price. My current assessment of my sweet spot is circa £12 a bottle. Here are some examples of what I enjoyed and where my palate is with reds:
Meerlust Red South Africa £12
Le Riche Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot South Africa £13
Beronia Reserva Rioja Spain. Waitrose £13.49 25% off + 5% case discount = £9.61.
The latter is the most delicious drop of wine that I have ever encountered - and for less than a tenner!
I've never got French wine, and up to about £20 have always been disappointed.
Any other recommendations that fit the bill would be most welcome, and if you can argue for more expensive, then I'd be intrigued.
P.S. I've left whites out, as I struggle even more. Prefer a Chardonnay rather than a very dry Sauv Blanc, and the missus can't stand Pinot Grigio.
How much it is worth you spending on wine, is of course dependent upon how much you can afford (and I suppose the quantity that you wish to drink). But in the past I have been guilty of bulk buying OKish wines from the supermarket as it's on special offer, rather than being a bit more discerning over what I enjoy. I'll happily pick up a case of Castillo de Diablo Cab Sauv for £5 a bottle and enjoy drinking it, but perhaps because of this, I've been missing out on some great wines if I were to stretch the budget.
The thing is, I can afford more, and so have concluded that I now will push the boat out a little.
But I have never tried any really fine wine, and worry that if I were to spend too much I would be destined to be disappointed. My conclusion is that for every step increase in wine quality requires a doubling in the price. My current assessment of my sweet spot is circa £12 a bottle. Here are some examples of what I enjoyed and where my palate is with reds:
Meerlust Red South Africa £12
Le Riche Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot South Africa £13
Beronia Reserva Rioja Spain. Waitrose £13.49 25% off + 5% case discount = £9.61.
The latter is the most delicious drop of wine that I have ever encountered - and for less than a tenner!
I've never got French wine, and up to about £20 have always been disappointed.
Any other recommendations that fit the bill would be most welcome, and if you can argue for more expensive, then I'd be intrigued.
P.S. I've left whites out, as I struggle even more. Prefer a Chardonnay rather than a very dry Sauv Blanc, and the missus can't stand Pinot Grigio.
The key thing to remember is the fixed costs in that bottle of wine.
For a £5 bottle the actual value of the wine in it is very low. Not sure how accurate the graphic is that I've added below but you get the idea.
The more you pay the greater the percentage of that money goes to pay for the actual wine itself hence hopefully a better quality wine.
That said I don't generally pay much more than £6-8 per bottle and don't really class myself as any sort on connoisseur. I also quite wary of the surpermarket wine offers, I'll buy them but it's nearly always the same wines that they have at half price from time to time, thing is I'd happily pay £6 for a bottle of Tesco Finest Aussie Shiraz, but £12, no chance so it's not really as good as they try to make it look.
For a £5 bottle the actual value of the wine in it is very low. Not sure how accurate the graphic is that I've added below but you get the idea.
The more you pay the greater the percentage of that money goes to pay for the actual wine itself hence hopefully a better quality wine.
That said I don't generally pay much more than £6-8 per bottle and don't really class myself as any sort on connoisseur. I also quite wary of the surpermarket wine offers, I'll buy them but it's nearly always the same wines that they have at half price from time to time, thing is I'd happily pay £6 for a bottle of Tesco Finest Aussie Shiraz, but £12, no chance so it's not really as good as they try to make it look.
jshell said:
Watched an interview with an accredited Sommelier any years ago. He said, forget price, go on taste and satisfaction. I follow that, but will sometimes splash £12 on a Chateau Neuf de Pape when Waitrose have it on offer. Valpolicella too, is a favourite.
Chateauneuf de Pape 
This can be found frequently on special offers, bought some from Co-Op for £6 a bottle recently. Asda have a fixed price one for £9 I think.
On the flip side, I regularly enjoy Aldi's Redstone Merlot for less than £4!
Fastchas said:
jshell said:
Watched an interview with an accredited Sommelier any years ago. He said, forget price, go on taste and satisfaction. I follow that, but will sometimes splash £12 on a Chateau Neuf de Pape when Waitrose have it on offer. Valpolicella too, is a favourite.
Chateauneuf de Pape This can be found frequently on special offers, bought some from Co-Op for £6 a bottle recently. Asda have a fixed price one for £9 I think.
On the flip side, I regularly enjoy Aldi's Redstone Merlot for less than £4!
We have about 300+ bottles as we seem to have a drink problem - we can't drink it as fast as we buy it...
I agree with others about not letting price be too much of a guide. We have bought a few cases of cooking wine a number of times for 3Euro a bottle and even less only to find it's really rather quaff-able. Likewise we have opened so quite expensive bottles and been rather disappointed.
My advise would be to forget buying from the supermarkets. We go over to France about 3-4 times a year to stock up on smokes for me, food stuffs, wine and port. We have befriended a wholesaler just inside the Belgian boarder and tend to come back with a bootfull for 1/3 the cost per bottle in the UK. Be warned though if you are going to go this route you need to occasionally make a weekend of it and have a room for the night near by. The last time we had a tasting session walking afterwards was an issue for everyone save the abstaining driver!
I agree with others about not letting price be too much of a guide. We have bought a few cases of cooking wine a number of times for 3Euro a bottle and even less only to find it's really rather quaff-able. Likewise we have opened so quite expensive bottles and been rather disappointed.
My advise would be to forget buying from the supermarkets. We go over to France about 3-4 times a year to stock up on smokes for me, food stuffs, wine and port. We have befriended a wholesaler just inside the Belgian boarder and tend to come back with a bootfull for 1/3 the cost per bottle in the UK. Be warned though if you are going to go this route you need to occasionally make a weekend of it and have a room for the night near by. The last time we had a tasting session walking afterwards was an issue for everyone save the abstaining driver!
I get the "don't necessarily buy on price" thing, but also am well aware of this:
I've enjoyed the odd Chateauneuf-du-Pape in the past and rate this amongst the better French locales that I have tasted, but generally I find French wine to lack the power and lusciousness of new world wines that I enjoy. And any specific recommendations would be welcome as I'm already familiar with the characteristics of most regions and grape varieties. i.e. I already know that I like Rioja, but specifically the Beronia that I mentioned above knocks the socks off any £5 Rioja that I've picked up in the past.
I'm also currently enjoying the Trivento Malbec (Argenina) @ £8 (or cheaper if you catch Morrisons off-guard) and consider this a fitting day-to-day glug
C0ffin D0dger said:
The key thing to remember is the fixed costs in that bottle of wine.
For a £5 bottle the actual value of the wine in it is very low. Not sure how accurate the graphic is that I've added below but you get the idea.
I also know that supermarkets often discount their wines to a loss position, and have previously 'stolen' a nice Rioja for £3.33 a bottle. But I want to discover more very good or great wines now, and want to do so without so much risk of pouring £20 down the kitchen sink.For a £5 bottle the actual value of the wine in it is very low. Not sure how accurate the graphic is that I've added below but you get the idea.
I've enjoyed the odd Chateauneuf-du-Pape in the past and rate this amongst the better French locales that I have tasted, but generally I find French wine to lack the power and lusciousness of new world wines that I enjoy. And any specific recommendations would be welcome as I'm already familiar with the characteristics of most regions and grape varieties. i.e. I already know that I like Rioja, but specifically the Beronia that I mentioned above knocks the socks off any £5 Rioja that I've picked up in the past.
I'm also currently enjoying the Trivento Malbec (Argenina) @ £8 (or cheaper if you catch Morrisons off-guard) and consider this a fitting day-to-day glug
Join the Wine society, I've been a member for many a year, and their wines consistently punch way above their pricepoints. It certainly opens eyes to the relatively poor/price/quality performance that an awfull lot of supermarket wine is.
From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
Wine Society is a good shout. If you're lucky you may have a local, independent wine merchant too or an Oddbins. Lots of knowledge, should be able to make good recommendations and help you explore, plus there'll usually be a few bottles open to taste.
Quick plug for 12 Green Bottles in Oswestry, The Good Wine Shop next to Kew Gardens Station.
Quick plug for 12 Green Bottles in Oswestry, The Good Wine Shop next to Kew Gardens Station.
Hosenbugler said:
Join the Wine society, I've been a member for many a year, and their wines consistently punch way above their pricepoints. It certainly opens eyes to the relatively poor/price/quality performance that an awfull lot of supermarket wine is.
From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
Actually I was looking at the Wine Society the other day, as was contemplating joining a club: Laithwaites, Virgin etc. I'm a former Naked Wines Angel, but gave up as I got bored with the selection and lack of whites that interested me. That said, I used to target under a tenner.From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
I like the look of Waitrose, but have only recently ventured in there for wine. Will experiment. I also support my local wine shop, as they're obviously knowledgeable and have already introduced me to some of the wines I've already listed.
As above join the Wine Society. Absolutely brilliant all round. It's £40 for lifetime membership but you get a £20 credit for your first order. Customer service is outstanding and you get regular offers sent to you. Absolute no brainer if you're into wine.
I can't see the table posted above showing fixed costs but as stated on a £5 bottle only a tiny % will be attributable to the wine itself.
Fixed duty on still wine in the UK is £2.05 plus vat so that applies if it's a bottle of Tesco Value red or a bottle of Mouton. Add in the cost of the bottle, cork (or cap at that price), labels, transport and some profit and you can see why the value of the wine itself is calculated in pence.
Above £5 the vast majority of the additional money is attributable to the wine so you get a lot more for your money even if you spent a few pounds more.
The wine society do a really good range of their own label wines but also do a posher version which is called the Exhibition range. These are between £10 and £35 although most are in the £10 - £20 range. All those I've tried have been superb and are really good value for money and puts into perspective just how much you pay in mark up in most restaurants for average wine. At least 3 times retail in London is typical.
You can get good wine in supermarkets but those you always see on offer for £5 down from £10 were never really £10 wines to start with.
I can't see the table posted above showing fixed costs but as stated on a £5 bottle only a tiny % will be attributable to the wine itself.
Fixed duty on still wine in the UK is £2.05 plus vat so that applies if it's a bottle of Tesco Value red or a bottle of Mouton. Add in the cost of the bottle, cork (or cap at that price), labels, transport and some profit and you can see why the value of the wine itself is calculated in pence.
Above £5 the vast majority of the additional money is attributable to the wine so you get a lot more for your money even if you spent a few pounds more.
The wine society do a really good range of their own label wines but also do a posher version which is called the Exhibition range. These are between £10 and £35 although most are in the £10 - £20 range. All those I've tried have been superb and are really good value for money and puts into perspective just how much you pay in mark up in most restaurants for average wine. At least 3 times retail in London is typical.
You can get good wine in supermarkets but those you always see on offer for £5 down from £10 were never really £10 wines to start with.
Hosenbugler said:
Join the Wine society, I've been a member for many a year, and their wines consistently punch way above their pricepoints. It certainly opens eyes to the relatively poor/price/quality performance that an awfull lot of supermarket wine is.
From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
Seconded. I was a wine merchant for a while, keep reasonable stocks at home and still buy from all over (including buying direct from vineyards - Burgundy is my 'thing'). But a place I buy from regularly and will continue to do so, is the Wine Soc.From what I can make of things , Waitrose offers the best supermarket wine selection by a country mile , if a little pricey. Mind you , Aldi do a couple of my chepa faves, a very pleasant NZ Pinot Noir , and an Aussie Pinot Gris (Grigio to you and me) . Cracking quaffers for the price.
Pricewise: as others have said you can have good cheaper wine and poor expensive wine. Wine is about balance. not too dry, sweet, alcoholic (as in being able to taste the alcohol), not too fruity etc etc etc - and those things can be found in very modestly priced bottles - but it in my experience its harder to find them and becomes a 'luck of the draw'/guessing game at lower price level bottles.
To generalise: I reckon at retail (not restaurant) prices - ~£15.00 a bottle should be giving you VERY good quality wines - that deliver all the elements you want/expect with that type.
For me, beyond that it becomes the law of diminishing returns for sure. Time after time you'll see Masters of Wine (and other experienced folk) fail to pick out famous/pricey bottles of wine tasted blind against much cheaper offerings*.
Of course, on average I myself spend more than £15 a bottle. a) becauase Burgundy isn't cheap and b) I'm an idiot.
./. * in fact - boring, wine-obsessive that I am, a few years back I got some 'blind tasting' wine bottle sleeves and if we've got mates coming round, we blind taste to make it more fun (yeah, I know *rollseyes*).
Waitrose do a white I really like for £7.99, sometimes discounted.
Only problem is everyone else must like it because they never have it in stock - in the last year I've once seen 3 bottles on waitrosecellar.com but you have to order a minimum of 6 and I didn't bother. Regretting that a bit.
Only problem is everyone else must like it because they never have it in stock - in the last year I've once seen 3 bottles on waitrosecellar.com but you have to order a minimum of 6 and I didn't bother. Regretting that a bit.
I'm a £5 a bottle kind of guy
A while ago I was helping a pal, local restaurateur 3 quality places mid-price places. Anyway in his boot he'd a number of cases of wine from Sainsburys. He looks at me and say's, I bet you're wondering what I'm doing with all the Sainsburys stuff?
By taking advantage of the offers I can buy decent wine for myself cheaper than my wholesaler. (Probably Bablake Wines but not certain)
For the business, I need, continuity of supply though.
A while ago I was helping a pal, local restaurateur 3 quality places mid-price places. Anyway in his boot he'd a number of cases of wine from Sainsburys. He looks at me and say's, I bet you're wondering what I'm doing with all the Sainsburys stuff?
By taking advantage of the offers I can buy decent wine for myself cheaper than my wholesaler. (Probably Bablake Wines but not certain)
For the business, I need, continuity of supply though.
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