Modelling vs real amps
Discussion
In the new gear thread Turn7 commented along the lines of modelling being the way forward as things like the AxeFX are so good. But why go with modelling unless what you want to use is either unobtainable or unaffordable?
Aside from session pro guitarists who may need to play pretty much anything, surely the choice of amp is an important part of your sound? And as such it's got to be better to get the right amp rather than having a copy of it from a computer?
I've just got back my Marshall 1987x back from having a master volume fitted, and it's so refreshing to have such a simple amp, makes me think much more about the dynamics of what I'm playing. So much of the control comes straight from the pick with it cleaning up beautifully if I turn down the guitar or pick less hard. Until valves stop being made I can't see why you'd switch to a model of one. Bit like saying I don't want to go out driving, I've got rFactor/GT5/sim of your choice at home.
Or am I missing something?
Aside from session pro guitarists who may need to play pretty much anything, surely the choice of amp is an important part of your sound? And as such it's got to be better to get the right amp rather than having a copy of it from a computer?
I've just got back my Marshall 1987x back from having a master volume fitted, and it's so refreshing to have such a simple amp, makes me think much more about the dynamics of what I'm playing. So much of the control comes straight from the pick with it cleaning up beautifully if I turn down the guitar or pick less hard. Until valves stop being made I can't see why you'd switch to a model of one. Bit like saying I don't want to go out driving, I've got rFactor/GT5/sim of your choice at home.
Or am I missing something?
Friend if mine is mid 50's and been gigging for years . He has a dodgy back and is fed up with heavy gear.
He has gone from a Marshall valve amp and US GIbson LP plus spare amp to an Axe fx and PRS .
He is over the moon with both tone and portability of his rig.
I can understand the point you are making totally,but I just think modelling makes more sense.
However,it is,like everything else,down to personal choice.
He has gone from a Marshall valve amp and US GIbson LP plus spare amp to an Axe fx and PRS .
He is over the moon with both tone and portability of his rig.
I can understand the point you are making totally,but I just think modelling makes more sense.
However,it is,like everything else,down to personal choice.
I've got a Line 6 Spider IV and whilst it suits me (and I can certainly get better sounds out of it than through my Marshall DSL) it doesn't have anything like the responsiveness or dynamic range that a good valve amp has.
However, it does have lots of presets, a built-in tuner, a jam function and a headphone socket and if I fork out for the foot controller I can update the presets via USB with my laptop!
However, it does have lots of presets, a built-in tuner, a jam function and a headphone socket and if I fork out for the foot controller I can update the presets via USB with my laptop!
Animal said:
it doesn't have anything like the responsiveness or dynamic range that a good valve amp has.
That's the nub of it really. AIUI the laws of physics stop transistors clipping in the nice way that valves do, and that's why they just sound better.However, unless you aren't the person carrying the amplifier up the stairs, there are many powerful arguments for modelling. Cost, versatility, weight, user friendliness, and reliability all come into the equation for working musicians - and for many applications going digital is a no brainer.
(Gibson SG into a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for me.
)I've got a mix myself:
A Line 6 Flextone III modelling amp 1 x 12 that I've had about 8 years.
Two devices that simulate different amps; a Zoom 505 MkII pedal and a Boss 8 track recorder.
A Blackstar HT5-R combo all valve amp.
I mainly got the Blackstar as the Flextone is quite heavy and I was struggling getting it onto the back seat of my car to get to rehearsals, plus I've always wanted a little valve amp. Of course it's much more limited in terms of the different sounds it gives, but those it does I'm very happy with (especially when I tried it into a Marshall 4 x 12 cabinet last week).
I've tweaked the settings on the Flextone over the years to improve the presets and some are pretty good, but just lacking a little 'something'. Maybe it's because it's quite an old model and newer ones would be better, but I find myself mostly playing the Blackstar these days (and I now fancy one of the smaller Vox valve heads to use into the Blackstar's built in speaker or the above mentioned Marshall 4 x 12.
The Zoom was bought just to take with me when I travelled as a headphone amp: It's okay for practice but a bit rough for recording/playing live, plus many of the presets sound like they were made to impress a 14 year old. I've edited a few to get something usable out of it, but don't use it much these days.
The modelling in my Boss recorder (BR-8 zip drive which shows it's age) isn't too bad once tweaked, more that the sounds seem to blend in well within the mix, but lately I've taken to micing up the Blackstar and recording that instead for the final tracks and just using the built in stuff to lay 'guide' tracks.
However I read a review of a Kemper Profiler Powerhead in a magazine and I wonder if it would be the answer to everything I'd ever need...
A Line 6 Flextone III modelling amp 1 x 12 that I've had about 8 years.
Two devices that simulate different amps; a Zoom 505 MkII pedal and a Boss 8 track recorder.
A Blackstar HT5-R combo all valve amp.
I mainly got the Blackstar as the Flextone is quite heavy and I was struggling getting it onto the back seat of my car to get to rehearsals, plus I've always wanted a little valve amp. Of course it's much more limited in terms of the different sounds it gives, but those it does I'm very happy with (especially when I tried it into a Marshall 4 x 12 cabinet last week).
I've tweaked the settings on the Flextone over the years to improve the presets and some are pretty good, but just lacking a little 'something'. Maybe it's because it's quite an old model and newer ones would be better, but I find myself mostly playing the Blackstar these days (and I now fancy one of the smaller Vox valve heads to use into the Blackstar's built in speaker or the above mentioned Marshall 4 x 12.
The Zoom was bought just to take with me when I travelled as a headphone amp: It's okay for practice but a bit rough for recording/playing live, plus many of the presets sound like they were made to impress a 14 year old. I've edited a few to get something usable out of it, but don't use it much these days.
The modelling in my Boss recorder (BR-8 zip drive which shows it's age) isn't too bad once tweaked, more that the sounds seem to blend in well within the mix, but lately I've taken to micing up the Blackstar and recording that instead for the final tracks and just using the built in stuff to lay 'guide' tracks.
However I read a review of a Kemper Profiler Powerhead in a magazine and I wonder if it would be the answer to everything I'd ever need...
The AxeFX in it's various guises is very impressive. Extremely impressive indeed. However, Line 6 products vary - the POD series are decent for what they are, but never sound quite as good as a real tube amp, at least in a live setting. The Line 6 Vetta II, which I last played some 8 years ago, is a very nice piece of kit indeed, but again, next to a real deal tube amp, wasn't quite there.
The best thing about modelling gear is that you can get the saturated tone without the enormous volumes needed to saturate a tube amp. Ok, so some amps do have switchable power modes, such as the EVH 5150 III, which has a 5V switch, allowing the amp to saturate at much lower volumes, but they're still bloody loud. Having modelling equipment running solid state, you can get that authentic tone at any volume.
The best thing about modelling gear is that you can get the saturated tone without the enormous volumes needed to saturate a tube amp. Ok, so some amps do have switchable power modes, such as the EVH 5150 III, which has a 5V switch, allowing the amp to saturate at much lower volumes, but they're still bloody loud. Having modelling equipment running solid state, you can get that authentic tone at any volume.
As a bassist I often feel a little left out in terms of quality FX but I'm probably going to go down a modelling route later this year and ditch my peddle-board.
I've already got the amp and wireless racked so it'll be a case of adding an FX processor. It'll be a bloody guitarists one with limited bass models but careful choice of guitar ones will suffice. I'll probably stump up for a separate compression 1U setup though.
Currently favouring the Line6 HDX Pro.
I've already got the amp and wireless racked so it'll be a case of adding an FX processor. It'll be a bloody guitarists one with limited bass models but careful choice of guitar ones will suffice. I'll probably stump up for a separate compression 1U setup though.
Currently favouring the Line6 HDX Pro.
I was using axe fx II for a couple of years, straight into a pair of active monitors in my studio cave. Sound was very impressive & very easy to find top sounds, very convenient especially when paired with the floor controller.
I am now back to valves , got a friedman browneye & a friedman taco, both these amps are superb & the really nice thing is even the BE100 sounds really good at lower levels, don't even need to use an attenuator.
The reason I moved back was to do with the constant upgrading of the axe & all the choices, 300 odd patches, user patches contstantly to sample, tweaking my own patches, new software it seemed every other month. It became that I was spending more time sampling & twiddling than playing , and don't want to be on a computer all the time at home, so back to valves was not really a sound issue it was to get back some simplicity , couple of channels, couple of pedals and sorted.
Of course you don't have to constantly upgrade the ax & try new patches, but your brain seems to want to, it feels It could be missing out if you don't upgrade to the latest software, user patches appear with great names like EVH brown sound, so I mean you just have to sample them
Nope not for me anymore, I have limited guitar playing time and that's what I want to do in that time, play the guitar, NOT spend it updating & tweaking...but yes amazing bit of kit the axe
I am now back to valves , got a friedman browneye & a friedman taco, both these amps are superb & the really nice thing is even the BE100 sounds really good at lower levels, don't even need to use an attenuator.
The reason I moved back was to do with the constant upgrading of the axe & all the choices, 300 odd patches, user patches contstantly to sample, tweaking my own patches, new software it seemed every other month. It became that I was spending more time sampling & twiddling than playing , and don't want to be on a computer all the time at home, so back to valves was not really a sound issue it was to get back some simplicity , couple of channels, couple of pedals and sorted.
Of course you don't have to constantly upgrade the ax & try new patches, but your brain seems to want to, it feels It could be missing out if you don't upgrade to the latest software, user patches appear with great names like EVH brown sound, so I mean you just have to sample them
Nope not for me anymore, I have limited guitar playing time and that's what I want to do in that time, play the guitar, NOT spend it updating & tweaking...but yes amazing bit of kit the axe
I bought an Axe-Fx not long after they came out.
I had a Marshal JVM410 head and a Mesa Recto 2x12 cabinet at the time. Prior to that I had a Mesa Triaxis and 2:90 power amp with the same cab.
I did a lot of tests before getting rid of my Marshall, but in the end it was obvious that the Axe Fx did the job on it's own quite easily. I even ended up running the "Brit Pre" model on the AxeFx through the power section of the Marshall, and there was no difference in tone. In fact, the AxeFx tone actually responded to touch a little better.
The Axe fx is the only modeller I've used that reacts to touch in the same way as a real amp. Nothing else I've tried has even come close.
So now I'm using the AxeFx along with a Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp and an Atomic Wedge speaker. I gigged with this setup for a year or so and it was fantastic. Very easy to connect up, and the sound was always spot-on - something I struggled with using the Marshall, it needed to be tweaked a lot for each venue which is difficult when you need to use quite a few different tones.
All this is not to say I wouldn't go valve again... I'd love a Carvin Legacy III - but until I live somewhere where I can really crank the volume up, the modellers just seem to work better.
EDIT: In regards to constantly upgrading ect. Mine's an original Axe Fx Ultra, so no longer receives updates, so there's never any need to update my patches. I've probably got about 5 amp models I use on it regularly (USA Clean, Brit Pre, USA Lead 2, Marsha and Recto) and I haven't adjusted them for a long time. They just work for me
I had a Marshal JVM410 head and a Mesa Recto 2x12 cabinet at the time. Prior to that I had a Mesa Triaxis and 2:90 power amp with the same cab.
I did a lot of tests before getting rid of my Marshall, but in the end it was obvious that the Axe Fx did the job on it's own quite easily. I even ended up running the "Brit Pre" model on the AxeFx through the power section of the Marshall, and there was no difference in tone. In fact, the AxeFx tone actually responded to touch a little better.
The Axe fx is the only modeller I've used that reacts to touch in the same way as a real amp. Nothing else I've tried has even come close.
So now I'm using the AxeFx along with a Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp and an Atomic Wedge speaker. I gigged with this setup for a year or so and it was fantastic. Very easy to connect up, and the sound was always spot-on - something I struggled with using the Marshall, it needed to be tweaked a lot for each venue which is difficult when you need to use quite a few different tones.
All this is not to say I wouldn't go valve again... I'd love a Carvin Legacy III - but until I live somewhere where I can really crank the volume up, the modellers just seem to work better.
EDIT: In regards to constantly upgrading ect. Mine's an original Axe Fx Ultra, so no longer receives updates, so there's never any need to update my patches. I've probably got about 5 amp models I use on it regularly (USA Clean, Brit Pre, USA Lead 2, Marsha and Recto) and I haven't adjusted them for a long time. They just work for me
Edited by framerateuk on Friday 22 August 10:19
I can see an Axe Fx finding its way into my world one day, they sound so good for everything to ambient to tear your face off metal. Devin Townsends EMG TV episodes demonstrate so well both extremes at which is seems to excel at both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdNT_o5gXBI&li...
2 minutes and 10...epic tone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdhUvQdxHH8
(still love my Marshall JVM 50w half stack and Yamaha TCH10X as well)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdNT_o5gXBI&li...
2 minutes and 10...epic tone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdhUvQdxHH8
(still love my Marshall JVM 50w half stack and Yamaha TCH10X as well)
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