Wireless guitar systems

[davidd]

Morning,

Anyone running a wireless system? I'm getting increasingly annoyed with my guitar to board cable and was thinking about going wireless. However they are not cheap and so wondered if those of you who'd bought them felt like they were worth the cash.
Also what wireless systems are any of you running and what are the pros and cons?

Cheers

D

[Jazzy Jefferson]

davidd said:

Morning,

Anyone running a wireless system? I'm getting increasingly annoyed with my guitar to board cable and was thinking about going wireless. However they are not cheap and so wondered if those of you who'd bought them felt like they were worth the cash.
Also what wireless systems are any of you running and what are the pros and cons?

Cheers

D

Why does the cable annoy you?

Unless you play wembley stadium size gigs, I struggle to see how or why wireless would make sense at all.

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Wednesday 1st October 12:20

[davidd]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

Why does the cable annoy you?

Fair point

We typically play quite small stages where we are all crammed in, however I like to wander off into the room to check the mix as I generally do our sound. So I like a longish cable, which then get's in a mess when I'm standing next to my board (which I do for 90% of the time). If I use a shorter cable I get annoyed I can't wander about, if I go longer I get annoyed it gets tangled up.

It also makes it easier to get to the bar !

First world problems and all that

Cheers

D

[Jazzy Jefferson]

davidd said:

Fair point

We typically play quite small stages where we are all crammed in, however I like to wander off into the room to check the mix as I generally do our sound. So I like a longish cable, which then get's in a mess when I'm standing next to my board (which I do for 90% of the time). If I use a shorter cable I get annoyed I can't wander about, if I go longer I get annoyed it gets tangled up.

It also makes it easier to get to the bar !

First world problems and all that

Cheers

D

Do you wonder off stage during the performance? Or during soundcheck?

Get a Trantec S4.4L wireless system (£140.00 ish) then add a Sennheiser CI1 cable, and you're now wireless.

This will be your cheapest option. Next step up is Sennheiser XSW72. Or the more expensive evolution range. Depends on your needs as to which to go for.

[davidd]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

Do you wonder off stage during the performance? Or during soundcheck?

Get a Trantec S4.4L wireless system (£140.00 ish) then add a Sennheiser CI1 cable, and you're now wireless.

This will be your cheapest option. Next step up is Sennheiser XSW72. Or the more expensive evolution range. Depends on your needs as to which to go for.

Thanks very much, I'll have a look.

D

[Jazzy Jefferson]

davidd said:

Thanks very much, I'll have a look.

D

One thought, if you use a pedal board, a proper wireless system wont integrate with that very well. There may be impedence changes that affect your sound. there may not be. I'm not 100% sure.

Perhaps look at the Line 6 Relay G30. This hopefully gets round that.

I deal a lot with pro audio and wireless systems. For me, the best advice is always use a cable

[davidd]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

One thought, if you use a pedal board, a proper wireless system wont integrate with that very well. There may be impedence changes that affect your sound. there may not be. I'm not 100% sure.

Perhaps look at the Line 6 Relay G30. This hopefully gets round that.

Ah I do, and the Line 6 caught my eye earlier in the shop... Appreciate your feedback (sorry )

[Jazzy Jefferson]

davidd said:

Ah I do, and the Line 6 caught my eye earlier in the shop... Appreciate your feedback (sorry )

In an ideal world, your pedals will go via an FX loop. Leaving you free to plug the guitar directly into the amp via a wireless system. You can then mix your guitar tone, with the effects. However I am making a fair few assumptions here on your set up and equipment, so ignore as appropriate.

If you need anything else, drop me a line.

[davidd]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

In an ideal world, your pedals will go via an FX loop. Leaving you free to plug the guitar directly into the amp via a wireless system. You can then mix your guitar tone, with the effects. However I am making a fair few assumptions here on your set up and equipment, so ignore as appropriate.

If you need anything else, drop me a line.

Thank you, greatly appreciated.

The signal path is..

Guitar ---- Digitech Whammy, Wah and Boss sd-1, phaser, tremelo ------ amp
Fx send ---- delay, boost ----- Fx return

I plan to move the phaser and tremolo into the fx loop but need to reorganise the board a bit first.

The 3 cables between the amp and the board are taped together and colour coded so all nice and neat.

Just reading up on the line 6

[Tom_C76]

Hi David. Both my lead guitarist and I are using the Line6 G30. Really good piece of kit, sits on the pedal board and runs off the same power supply as the pedals too. Used it for the last 2 gigs, plus for wandering around the room in rehearsals when bored during long solos...

[gazza285]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

In an ideal world, your pedals will go via an FX loop. Leaving you free to plug the guitar directly into the amp via a wireless system. You can then mix your guitar tone, with the effects. However I am making a fair few assumptions here on your set up and equipment, so ignore as appropriate.

If you need anything else, drop me a line.

Effects pedals are designed to work with the signal coming from the guitar, there will be an input buffer to change the input from high to low impedence, so no need to worry about plugging the wireless system output into them.

Effects loops are designed to run proper effects units at line level, not instrument level, at gig levels you risk overloading the pedal, unless there is an option to reduce the loop level to instrument level. It's typically marked +4dB for line level effects and -10dB if you want to run pedals in the loop.

[Jazzy Jefferson]

gazza285 said:

Effects pedals are designed to work with the signal coming from the guitar, there will be an input buffer to change the input from high to low impedence, so no need to worry about plugging the wireless system output into them.

Effects loops are designed to run proper effects units at line level, not instrument level, at gig levels you risk overloading the pedal, unless there is an option to reduce the loop level to instrument level. It's typically marked +4dB for line level effects and -10dB if you want to run pedals in the loop.

Yes they are. But if you buy a wireless system, the signal comes from the wireless system. Not the guitar. This will be fine in the cases of the Line 6 G30 as the system outputs at instrument level.

I'd have thought (Although not a guitarist) that the fx loop output varies from amp to amp. My studio VOX amp had a variable level on the back. A marshall did not. So, I think all of the above can be done, depending on the set up.

Most wireless systems however are geared up for Mics, and output accordingly. Thus, wont integrate with guitar pedals easily. Hence the fx loop suggestion.

As said though, the best option... plug a cable in ;-)

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Thursday 2nd October 12:03

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Thursday 2nd October 12:05

[gazza285]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

gazza285 said:

Effects pedals are designed to work with the signal coming from the guitar, there will be an input buffer to change the input from high to low impedence, so no need to worry about plugging the wireless system output into them.

Effects loops are designed to run proper effects units at line level, not instrument level, at gig levels you risk overloading the pedal, unless there is an option to reduce the loop level to instrument level. It's typically marked +4dB for line level effects and -10dB if you want to run pedals in the loop.

Yes they are. But if you buy a wireless system, the signal comes from the wireless system. Not the guitar. This will be fine in the cases of the Line 6 G30 as the system outputs at instrument level.

I'd have thought (Although not a guitarist) that the fx loop output varies from amp to amp. My studio VOX amp had a variable level on the back. A marshall did not. So, I think all of the above can be done, depending on the set up.

Most wireless systems however are geared up for Mics, and output accordingly. Thus, wont integrate with guitar pedals easily. Hence the fx loop suggestion.

As said though, the best option... plug a cable in ;-)

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Thursday 2nd October 12:03

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Thursday 2nd October 12:05

Wireless systems are designed to replace the cable, the output has to be similar to using a cable or else they would overdrive the amp, and not in the good way. Same applies to wired and wireless microphones, the signal output is nowhere near line level, which is why mixing desks use preamps. Pedals in the effects loop may work if your amp has been designed for it, and will likely still work at low levels, but if you are running your amp at gig levels most amps effects loop output will be too hot for a pedal.

Edited by gazza285 on Thursday 2nd October 22:29

[davidd]

My Amp effects loop has a switch so I can run it at the right level for pedals (which I do!).

Quite tempted to shove all the pedals into it to see what difference it makes.

D

[Tom_C76]

Loop is fine for chorus/reverb/delay. Horrible for overdrive, and didn't you buy one of the B9 organ pedals? If so that'll really struggle to track notes after the preamp has coloured them.

[davidd]

Tom_C76 said:

Loop is fine for chorus/reverb/delay. Horrible for overdrive, and didn't you buy one of the B9 organ pedals? If so that'll really struggle to track notes after the preamp has coloured them.

Fair point... that b9 is great.

[Jazzy Jefferson]

gazza285 said:

Wireless systems are designed to replace the cable, the output has to be similar to using a cable or else they would overdrive the amp, and not in the good way. Same applies to wired and wireless microphones, the signal output is nowhere near line level, which is why mixing desks use preamps.

No one said line level and mic level were the same? Instrument level is neither line or mic level

A guitar specific wireless system, should output at instrument level (not line or mic) such as a Line 6 G30. This will not overdrive the amp.

A wireless mic system (such as a trantec, or sennheiser) outputs at mic level. This will not overdrive the amp. But is difficult to integrate into a pedal set up due to (typically) an XLR out rather than jack.

An FX loop will work with anything, provided the specs are correct. So if your FX loop and pedals all operate at instrument level, You're sorted. Not all pedals are at instrument level, and neither are all FX loops. Likewise with line level etc.

Line level Will overdrive the amp. You're not wrong there.

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Friday 3rd October 15:08

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Friday 3rd October 15:09

[gazza285]

Jazzy Jefferson said:

gazza285 said:

Wireless systems are designed to replace the cable, the output has to be similar to using a cable or else they would overdrive the amp, and not in the good way. Same applies to wired and wireless microphones, the signal output is nowhere near line level, which is why mixing desks use preamps.

No one said line level and mic level were the same? Instrument level is neither line or mic level Never said it was, it was you that brought up microphone level output from wireless systems as a reason not to use a wireless system with pedals, when instrument wireless systems are designed to replace instrument cables.

A guitar specific wireless system, should output at instrument level (not line or mic) such as a Line 6 G30. This will not overdrive the amp.

A wireless mic system (such as a trantec, or sennheiser) outputs at mic level.That is what I said?

An FX loop will work with anything, provided the specs are correct. So if your FX loop and pedals all operate at instrument level, You're sorted. Not all pedals are at instrument level, and neither are all FX loops. Likewise with line level etc. That is also what I said, but most operate at line level, certainly all my amplifiers do, and clipping op amps in pedals doesn't sound nice.

Line level Will overdrive the amp. You're not wrong there.

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Friday 3rd October 15:08

Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Friday 3rd October 15:09

Anyway, enough banter, my days of sound engineering and touring backline tech are behind me, I have a "proper" job now. Still build my own amps and pedals for fun and no profit.

[Jazzy Jefferson]

gazza285 said:

Anyway, enough banter, my days of sound engineering and touring backline tech are behind me, I have a "proper" job now. Still build my own amps and pedals for fun and no profit.

???? Right...
Glad we agree.