Applying music theory to imptovisation
Discussion
Bit of an odd question this:
I've been playing guitar since forever and think I'm ok/good (play in a well-regarded band, gig regularly etc etc). I'm definitely a singer first though, and play rhythm in the band, but still take the odd solo and like to have a jam from time to time.
I've been trying to focus on my guitar a bit of late (because I just bought another guitar at Christmas and am still all excited by it) and feel that I've plateaued a bit. I'm at the stage where I can pretty much okay most things, and given the time and be-bothered ness, I can learn a solo for tab or by ear but I'm quite lazy about doing that and if I'm honest, learning other people's solos doesn't especially blow my hair back.
What I want to do is get better at improvising my own. Having recently been watching Springsteen's '78 darkness tour, and in particular the solo at the beginning of Prove it All Night (if you now it, you'll know it) and want to do that! I love the soulfulness of it and the fact that he's covering a lot of the fretboard and clearly off on a bit of a journey.
Now here's the thing. I'm pretty ok with music theory, I started off playing classical guitar when I was a kid and did my theory grades up to a decent standard. I did music at Uni and did a term of composition so have a grasp of harmonic theory, relative majors/minors and in relation to guitar, what pentatonic shapes, extensions and so on work.
I'm not too interested in modes and have no desire to be the next satriani/malmsteen and if I'm honest, that stuff does nothing for me so I'm happy with my theory (jazz will be my next direction but let's leave that for now!) at present.
The thing is, it's pen and paper stuff. I dint actually think when I'm playing "I'm in this key, and now im moving to the relative minor and there's me back in the major and here's me slipping in a blue note" - I just play it. It happens to fast to really think about it and I would always need a second to tell you what key I'm in, what my root is etc. A second is too long whilst you're actually playing though.
So I feel I get trapped into playing the same licks and patterns a bit. Which is annoying.
So onto my question, if you've made it this far:
Do the really good guys think all that s
t through whilst they're actually playing?! Or do they just know more licks and patterns than me!?
I'm wondering whether to focus my time on the theory and do boring stuff like get faster at reading the whole fretboard and do execrcise jumping from scale to scale, or would I be better served just pulling apart great solos stealing licks, playing by ear and not worrying too much about how they all fit together? I have a sneaking suspicion the nobody really thinks it all through as they play but any pointers much appreciated!
Thanks.
I've been playing guitar since forever and think I'm ok/good (play in a well-regarded band, gig regularly etc etc). I'm definitely a singer first though, and play rhythm in the band, but still take the odd solo and like to have a jam from time to time.
I've been trying to focus on my guitar a bit of late (because I just bought another guitar at Christmas and am still all excited by it) and feel that I've plateaued a bit. I'm at the stage where I can pretty much okay most things, and given the time and be-bothered ness, I can learn a solo for tab or by ear but I'm quite lazy about doing that and if I'm honest, learning other people's solos doesn't especially blow my hair back.
What I want to do is get better at improvising my own. Having recently been watching Springsteen's '78 darkness tour, and in particular the solo at the beginning of Prove it All Night (if you now it, you'll know it) and want to do that! I love the soulfulness of it and the fact that he's covering a lot of the fretboard and clearly off on a bit of a journey.
Now here's the thing. I'm pretty ok with music theory, I started off playing classical guitar when I was a kid and did my theory grades up to a decent standard. I did music at Uni and did a term of composition so have a grasp of harmonic theory, relative majors/minors and in relation to guitar, what pentatonic shapes, extensions and so on work.
I'm not too interested in modes and have no desire to be the next satriani/malmsteen and if I'm honest, that stuff does nothing for me so I'm happy with my theory (jazz will be my next direction but let's leave that for now!) at present.
The thing is, it's pen and paper stuff. I dint actually think when I'm playing "I'm in this key, and now im moving to the relative minor and there's me back in the major and here's me slipping in a blue note" - I just play it. It happens to fast to really think about it and I would always need a second to tell you what key I'm in, what my root is etc. A second is too long whilst you're actually playing though.
So I feel I get trapped into playing the same licks and patterns a bit. Which is annoying.
So onto my question, if you've made it this far:
Do the really good guys think all that s
t through whilst they're actually playing?! Or do they just know more licks and patterns than me!?I'm wondering whether to focus my time on the theory and do boring stuff like get faster at reading the whole fretboard and do execrcise jumping from scale to scale, or would I be better served just pulling apart great solos stealing licks, playing by ear and not worrying too much about how they all fit together? I have a sneaking suspicion the nobody really thinks it all through as they play but any pointers much appreciated!
Thanks.
All the decent players I know have their theory down and the jazzers even more. Lets say you're doing basic pentatonic improvisation, you at least need to know the key so you start in the right key, you can't scratch around until you hit upon something that works.
If you have a mega ear then maybe but I've always found studying the theory allowed me to know what would work then you experiment with it and decide what sounds you like and the incorporate that in to your playing.
Good luck
If you have a mega ear then maybe but I've always found studying the theory allowed me to know what would work then you experiment with it and decide what sounds you like and the incorporate that in to your playing.
Good luck
dojo said:
All the decent players I know have their theory down and the jazzers even more. Lets say you're doing basic pentatonic improvisation, you at least need to know the key so you start in the right key, you can't scratch around until you hit upon something that works.
Agreed - but knowing what key to play in is pretty simple, I reckon. I suppose what I'm getting at is more going beyond that to different shapes around the fretboard, inversions etc etc. I *know* all that stuff but not so quickly I can just jump about at will - I need to think it through, which you can't really do once you're playing. [quote=dojo
If you have a mega ear then maybe but I've always found studying the theory allowed me to know what would work then you experiment with it and decide what sounds you like and the incorporate that in to your playing.
Good luck
For me, I almost need to work out some runs/double stops/you name it in advance and then incorporate them into whatever shape I'm playing in, and I feel this limits me a bit to stuff I already know works. It becomes a process of sticking various blocks of notes that you know already work, together and in the right key (which is really the easy bit).
I feel as though I'm missing out on some sort of complete freedom to explore the whole fretboard and know exactly what note is coming next. But then a part of me thinks that surely nobody actually does that and the great players simply have far more 'blocks' to draw on than I do?
In essence, if you hit the pause button midway through a Clapton solo and asked him what note's coming next, would he say "I'm in an A minor pentatonic in *this* position and as such my next note will be D" or would he be more "8th fret, under my pinky, whatever that is..."
(I appreciate he could work it out but is he doing that as he's playing or is he 'just playing'?)
I think that knowing the theory (and having the technique) allows you to improvise freely. Like you say knowing your pentatonic scale in all 5 positions is vital, when you learn them you stumbled through some them but as you become more familiar with them you'll be able to use at will. Dipping in and out of key is and maybe something some players happened upon, depending on what you're playing over and what kind of player you are.
Taking pentatonic substitution as an example (of how I got to grips with it) using an easy a key like G ( G A B C D E F#) - your go to minor pentatonic would be Eminor - E G A B D E but if you look at the other minor chords in the Key of G other than Em & you have Am & Bm you'll notice that you can also build minor pentatonic scales of these degrees A C D E G A & B D E F# A and all the notes are also in G major. So you play around with them and even though they work the licks you know don't work in the same way, so you figure out how to make them work and what works for you and then when you are playing next in Em you'll also have your mind what works from the Am & Bm pentatonic and be able to dip in and out of them too giving different flavours. Now you might have a good ear and be able hear those sounds and just play it but for me it always came having the knowledge first, i know others who do it the other way round but they all know what they're doing.
Sorry I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs and if this is all really easy/basic stuff I'll shut up, i suppose it comes down to what kind of learner you are.
Taking pentatonic substitution as an example (of how I got to grips with it) using an easy a key like G ( G A B C D E F#) - your go to minor pentatonic would be Eminor - E G A B D E but if you look at the other minor chords in the Key of G other than Em & you have Am & Bm you'll notice that you can also build minor pentatonic scales of these degrees A C D E G A & B D E F# A and all the notes are also in G major. So you play around with them and even though they work the licks you know don't work in the same way, so you figure out how to make them work and what works for you and then when you are playing next in Em you'll also have your mind what works from the Am & Bm pentatonic and be able to dip in and out of them too giving different flavours. Now you might have a good ear and be able hear those sounds and just play it but for me it always came having the knowledge first, i know others who do it the other way round but they all know what they're doing.
Sorry I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs and if this is all really easy/basic stuff I'll shut up, i suppose it comes down to what kind of learner you are.
If we're talking really basic, then practice! Go through the 5 and make sure you can do them without thinking about it.
And count yourself lucky you have a fretboard. Doing similar on a normal keyboard is tougher unless I'm missing some vital info. There's no pentatonic shape that will work up and down the board like with a guitar so you need to know your scales. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
And count yourself lucky you have a fretboard. Doing similar on a normal keyboard is tougher unless I'm missing some vital info. There's no pentatonic shape that will work up and down the board like with a guitar so you need to know your scales. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
I guess I'm maybe not explaining myself well.
I know theory to a good standard first on piano, then on guitar and I know my shapes.
My question is really whether really great guitarists actually *think* the theory through as they're playing, or whether it's just muscle memory and throwing together lots of already learned licks in various shapes?
Which leads onto am I better practicing scales and drills to improve that aspect, or analysing good solos, pulling out licks that work and increasing my pallete of building blocks to draw on.
Does that make sense?
I don't think the answer is just 'practice' unless you're a beginner. Practice what, is the obvious counter once you're past the early stages?
I know theory to a good standard first on piano, then on guitar and I know my shapes.
My question is really whether really great guitarists actually *think* the theory through as they're playing, or whether it's just muscle memory and throwing together lots of already learned licks in various shapes?
Which leads onto am I better practicing scales and drills to improve that aspect, or analysing good solos, pulling out licks that work and increasing my pallete of building blocks to draw on.
Does that make sense?
I don't think the answer is just 'practice' unless you're a beginner. Practice what, is the obvious counter once you're past the early stages?
You can always hear the difference in a player who knows his shapes and a player who really knows his theory. The deciding factor is probably whether or not your musical brain can analyse well enough on the fly to really have command over what you're doing, or if you're just playing by feel. Both probably feel utterly natural to the respective players.
I'm no pro but I find the more I do it, the easier it gets.
And as for improvisation...
From a piano perspective, I'd practice scales and keep practising them until you can do them without thinking about how your fingers should move. It's one thing to know where you want your fingers to be but another to get them to do things fluidly and without mistakes. I'd also practice mini riffs. When I play, I always notice there are certain "tunes" that I end up playing amongst the stuff I'm making up on the fly. And then being able to hit notes on time that aren't close to where you're playing also takes practice. I'd also have a backup plan for when you hit a duff note.
And as for improvisation...
From a piano perspective, I'd practice scales and keep practising them until you can do them without thinking about how your fingers should move. It's one thing to know where you want your fingers to be but another to get them to do things fluidly and without mistakes. I'd also practice mini riffs. When I play, I always notice there are certain "tunes" that I end up playing amongst the stuff I'm making up on the fly. And then being able to hit notes on time that aren't close to where you're playing also takes practice. I'd also have a backup plan for when you hit a duff note.
Hoofy said:
I'd practice scales and keep practising them until you can do them without thinking about how your fingers should move. It's one thing to know where you want your fingers to be but another to get them to do things fluidly and without mistakes. I'd also practice mini riffs. When I play, I always notice there are certain "tunes" that I end up playing amongst the stuff I'm making up on the fly.
I think this is key, and me in a nutshell. Whatever you want to call 'em - sequences, runs, riffs whatever - I'm becoming more and more convinced as I think about it that great improvisers are sticking these together, rafter than crafting coherent musical theory 'live'.Despite having studied for years, I still prefer my ear and feel over a more scientific approach and whilst I might be able to analyse something after I playes it, and tell you what it was, I'm definitely not thinking it through at the time.
It makes sense to me that BB King say, knowing what key he's in etc will just naturally have a few shapes his hands will fall to, and will probably know instinctively that *this* shape connects well with *that* one so his hands can kind of go there themselves.
Eta - interesting discussion. Thanks for chiming in y'all.
Edited by Disastrous on Thursday 29th January 20:10
Yeah, it is interesting.
What you say made me think - when I was first learning to play tennis properly (ie not just hit a ball with a racket but actual technique eg low to high, positioning, holding the racket), I told one very experienced player that I was studying slo-mo videos of the top players and noticed differences. He suggested that I don't worry about how they do it as everyone's technique will be slightly different and I would develop my own style. So perhaps it is a case of just playing, enjoying and letting things happen rather than analysing it.
Speaking of analysing, when I play for someone, I might be thinking, "Hm, sounds a bit st compared to what I did the other day!" and then someone will say how beautiful the music is. 
What you say made me think - when I was first learning to play tennis properly (ie not just hit a ball with a racket but actual technique eg low to high, positioning, holding the racket), I told one very experienced player that I was studying slo-mo videos of the top players and noticed differences. He suggested that I don't worry about how they do it as everyone's technique will be slightly different and I would develop my own style. So perhaps it is a case of just playing, enjoying and letting things happen rather than analysing it.
Speaking of analysing, when I play for someone, I might be thinking, "Hm, sounds a bit s
t compared to what I did the other day!" and then someone will say how beautiful the music is. OP - I am pretty sure the answer to your question is no. You need to use your ears - no-one has mentioned them yet....
I agree it's quite hard to stop playing the same patterns all the time but at the same time, those patterns are what define your personal style. It is for this reason that David Gilmour and Bryan May's playing is so distinctive as opposed to the dozens of generic rock guitarists who are almost interchangeable.
Far too much guff about theory on this forum - it's music not computing and anything goes. Put something on that you like with an interesting progression and play along to it. No-one ever talked about pentatonic scales etc before the internet.
I agree it's quite hard to stop playing the same patterns all the time but at the same time, those patterns are what define your personal style. It is for this reason that David Gilmour and Bryan May's playing is so distinctive as opposed to the dozens of generic rock guitarists who are almost interchangeable.
Far too much guff about theory on this forum - it's music not computing and anything goes. Put something on that you like with an interesting progression and play along to it. No-one ever talked about pentatonic scales etc before the internet.
Scales, modes, positions etc. are your pallette. You can't paint without them & the more you know, the wider your repertoire, but it's only half the equation. The rest is creativity, that comes from your imagination. I don't hear many complaints about Eric Clapton, John Squire or Slash for example, most of their best work was done in the pentatonic scale - five notes used with great imagination & flair.
dojo said:
lockhart flawse said:
No-one ever talked about pentatonic scales etc before the internet.
You can't be serious?!?
To the O/P. You are obviously way further on than many in here! I work with the best guitarists in the UK (arguably the world), TBH I think it's 10 hours a day for 10 years, with ears that can hear beyond the scales. You mention Jazz... this is where you need to move, and quick time. Getting stuck in pentatonic rock is a dead end. A big mistake (unless that's all you want to do).
You probably have anyway, but if you haven't, spend a month listening to Donald Fagen and start playing along to his stuff. Perfect mix of Rock & Jazz IMHO.
Good luck.
Edited by GetCarter on Friday 30th January 15:31
Scales are a good place to start, learn them all so you know them starting on every degree of the scale (thats where your modes come from.. you don't need to know them by name, just buy sound)... same with arpeggios.
Dont get bogged down with pentatonic scales otherwise thats all you will play, and a 5 note scale is pretty limiting and sound boring.
Try playing chords and singing over the top of it, up and down scales to start with (just hear them, you don't need to know what it is you are singing).
The whole 'goal' of improvising is to be able to play what you are thinking or hearing in your head. Singing is very intuitive, and if you can do sing what you want to play well then its easier to transport that over to an instrument rather then getting bogged down with the mechanics of physically playing it.
And last of all.... and most importantly. Listen to solos that you like and learn them... thats the best thing to do. Speak to anyone who it really proficient at improvising and they will have all done it, LOTS!!
Dont get bogged down with pentatonic scales otherwise thats all you will play, and a 5 note scale is pretty limiting and sound boring.
Try playing chords and singing over the top of it, up and down scales to start with (just hear them, you don't need to know what it is you are singing).
The whole 'goal' of improvising is to be able to play what you are thinking or hearing in your head. Singing is very intuitive, and if you can do sing what you want to play well then its easier to transport that over to an instrument rather then getting bogged down with the mechanics of physically playing it.
And last of all.... and most importantly. Listen to solos that you like and learn them... thats the best thing to do. Speak to anyone who it really proficient at improvising and they will have all done it, LOTS!!
Edited by rich83 on Friday 30th January 17:09
lockhart flawse said:
OP - I am pretty sure the answer to your question is no. You need to use your ears - no-one has mentioned them yet....
I agree it's quite hard to stop playing the same patterns all the time but at the same time, those patterns are what define your personal style. It is for this reason that David Gilmour and Bryan May's playing is so distinctive as opposed to the dozens of generic rock guitarists who are almost interchangeable.
Far too much guff about theory on this forum - it's music not computing and anything goes. Put something on that you like with an interesting progression and play along to it. No-one ever talked about pentatonic scales etc before the internet.
This is advice you'd do well to avoid. It amazes me that people still have these old-fashioned views, like knowing theory and being good at your instrument is something to be ashamed of.I agree it's quite hard to stop playing the same patterns all the time but at the same time, those patterns are what define your personal style. It is for this reason that David Gilmour and Bryan May's playing is so distinctive as opposed to the dozens of generic rock guitarists who are almost interchangeable.
Far too much guff about theory on this forum - it's music not computing and anything goes. Put something on that you like with an interesting progression and play along to it. No-one ever talked about pentatonic scales etc before the internet.
Learn all you can, it will open so many doors that would otherwise be shut to you.
Old fashioned? What's old fashioned about it? All I am saying is to open your ears and be creative rather than being bound by bleedin' pentatonic scales or whatever. Music is a creative, expressive process - technique only goes so far....I am suggesting a bit more Tom Verlaine and a bit less Steve Vai.
L.F. (GRADE VIII, GRADE VI theory and lead guitarist)
L.F. (GRADE VIII, GRADE VI theory and lead guitarist)
Yes, get away from the pentatonic - learn modes! If you have a guitarist stuck in a rut of playing the same old patterns, saying "just play with your ears" is probably not going to help, their hands and mind have become stuck in a creative rut.
You mention Vai - he is a player who knows his theory inside out and has the technique to play practically anything he can imagine, which is surely the goal of practice and learning. While the best improvisers undoubtedly have their own identifiable styles, they have theory and technique of the highest level, which would seem isn't a coincidence.
You mention Vai - he is a player who knows his theory inside out and has the technique to play practically anything he can imagine, which is surely the goal of practice and learning. While the best improvisers undoubtedly have their own identifiable styles, they have theory and technique of the highest level, which would seem isn't a coincidence.
Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff