Help my poor brain understand poliphony
Discussion
Hi,
We are looking to buy a digital piano - partly for learning but in all honesty partly for furniture (always wanted to have a piano in the house to while away a happy hour).
Looking at the Yamaha CLP-575, as one of the main things for me is the keyboard being as close to a real piano as possible (within budget). That model has wooden weighted keys which seems like the sweet spot for price/features.
I have looked on ebay for older Clavino models but most are plastic keys plus it appears the technology has moved on somewhat.
Reading through the advice it's universally taken that the higher the poliphony the better. I understand that it's not a case of "I have ten fingers, so can only play ten notes at once".
However the bit I'm struggling with is why would you need more than 88? Surely if once you have hit all the keys (with a long sustain) there are no more noted to play, so the next one you hit would need to drop out anyway.
So the difference between 128 notes 256 notes poliphony appears to be mearly bragging rights, non?
Or does it not quite work that way really?
Thanks,
We are looking to buy a digital piano - partly for learning but in all honesty partly for furniture (always wanted to have a piano in the house to while away a happy hour).
Looking at the Yamaha CLP-575, as one of the main things for me is the keyboard being as close to a real piano as possible (within budget). That model has wooden weighted keys which seems like the sweet spot for price/features.
I have looked on ebay for older Clavino models but most are plastic keys plus it appears the technology has moved on somewhat.
Reading through the advice it's universally taken that the higher the poliphony the better. I understand that it's not a case of "I have ten fingers, so can only play ten notes at once".
However the bit I'm struggling with is why would you need more than 88? Surely if once you have hit all the keys (with a long sustain) there are no more noted to play, so the next one you hit would need to drop out anyway.
So the difference between 128 notes 256 notes poliphony appears to be mearly bragging rights, non?
Or does it not quite work that way really?
Thanks,
In a piano you only play yourself, you are right OP. And quite why a 16-part recorder is a useful feature on a piano-only keyboard is beyond me.
128/256 note polyphony is only important for synths/modules which are used for playing back several different instruments at once (where note stealing can be a real problem).
128/256 note polyphony is only important for synths/modules which are used for playing back several different instruments at once (where note stealing can be a real problem).
Ok, let me try. On a real piano, when you 'open' it, or press the sustain piano, all the strings resonate gently, you can actually hear the piano singing or buzzing quietly, even when you don't press a note.
If you then hit, say, middle C, you also get all the harmonic frequencies (other 'C' notes) vibrating in sympathy, plus all the 2nd harmonics ('G' notes) etc. My terminology might be a bit off here, but the principle is the same.
Cheaper electric pianos can't do this, I know my little Yamaha P105 doesn't do it, despite having 128 note polyphony.
With some pieces of music, more advanced ones generally it has to be said, the amount of notes being able to sound simultaneously is fairly important and dramatically changes the sound of the piece.
Potentially, you also can sustain a single note, or notes, for quite some time with some music, if the other notes are very fast, it's not unfeasible that you would get some dropout of the sustained notes.
To be fair though, unless you're playing at a fairly advanced level, you will not notice or appreciate this, and even if you do, you can work around it anyway.
Eta: I've just been experimenting on my old Roland with, I think, 64 note polyphony. Holding down the sustain pedal, playing a single bass note and a fast sequence of notes in the right hand soon leads to the bass note being dropped.
If you then hit, say, middle C, you also get all the harmonic frequencies (other 'C' notes) vibrating in sympathy, plus all the 2nd harmonics ('G' notes) etc. My terminology might be a bit off here, but the principle is the same.
Cheaper electric pianos can't do this, I know my little Yamaha P105 doesn't do it, despite having 128 note polyphony.
With some pieces of music, more advanced ones generally it has to be said, the amount of notes being able to sound simultaneously is fairly important and dramatically changes the sound of the piece.
Potentially, you also can sustain a single note, or notes, for quite some time with some music, if the other notes are very fast, it's not unfeasible that you would get some dropout of the sustained notes.
To be fair though, unless you're playing at a fairly advanced level, you will not notice or appreciate this, and even if you do, you can work around it anyway.
Eta: I've just been experimenting on my old Roland with, I think, 64 note polyphony. Holding down the sustain pedal, playing a single bass note and a fast sequence of notes in the right hand soon leads to the bass note being dropped.
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Sunday 7th February 20:49
Thanks for trying but my brain still hurts!
I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
Super Slo Mo said:
Eta: I've just been experimenting on my old Roland with, I think, 64 note polyphony. Holding down the sustain pedal, playing a single bass note and a fast sequence of notes in the right hand soon leads to the bass note being dropped.
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Sunday 7th February 20:49
pistonheadforum said:
Thanks for trying but my brain still hurts!
I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
It doesn't seem to work like that. You would expect that it's not a cumulative thing, and that if you hold one note and play several others, the piano (digital) just adds up the number of notes being played at any given moment. I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
However, it seems that it's the total number of notes in a given passage that counts, and once you exceed that it drops the first ones, assuming they are still sounding.
So, in your example above, just as my Roland drops notes once you play the 65th note (these were the same two notes played repeatedly, with the bass being held by the sustain pedal), you would get notes dropped once you reach note 89, 129 etc. Obviously, the more polyphony you have, the less likely this is to be noticeable.
And yes, with a real piano you only get 88 note polyphony really, but that's because each note (or set of strings as there are 3 for most notes) can sound independently indefinitely, or at least until the string resonance has decayed away to nothing.
EskimoArapaho said:
Or just numerous piano/etc voices (where you'd still never need 256 notes of polyphony)?
In my experience, without that 256 note polyphony, it can't do some of the things a real piano can, as in my initial example above, which is admittedly a fairly limited situation, but the resonance of the harmonics isn't the same by a long shot, even on a 128 polyphony piano.I would hope an expensive DP can do it of course, but I haven't played a modern one of that level. My cheaper ones certainly can't do it.
pistonheadforum said:
Thanks for trying but my brain still hurts!
I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
Also, notes have a sustain and release phase to them as well (especially if you are holding the sustain pedal) so the note doesn't end when you release the key. This means that in a fictional example where you thump all 88 keys with the sustain pedal held, release and then re-thump them, the new notes will cause an unnatural 'choking' of the previous ones as it chops off their sustain tail. Make sense?I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
Super Slo Mo said:
Eta: I've just been experimenting on my old Roland with, I think, 64 note polyphony. Holding down the sustain pedal, playing a single bass note and a fast sequence of notes in the right hand soon leads to the bass note being dropped.
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Sunday 7th February 20:49
I'm not sure how much polyphony you ultimately need to be able to play naturally in most instances but I'd guess something around 88 would do it, although as other posters have commented, if you start multi tracking, you will run out of notes quickly.
Super Slo Mo said:
In my experience, without that 256 note polyphony, it can't do some of the things a real piano can, as in my initial example above, which is admittedly a fairly limited situation, but the resonance of the harmonics isn't the same by a long shot, even on a 128 polyphony piano.
I would hope an expensive DP can do it of course, but I haven't played a modern one of that level. My cheaper ones certainly can't do it.
If it does mimic the sympathetic resonance of other strings then yes, hitting one key would create several other notes (very quietly). But as soon as those notes are themselves struck via the keyboard, the initial resonance is lost and the string's own note is sounded - i.e. replacing its sympathetic resonance. So there are still just 88 notes of polyphony needed.I would hope an expensive DP can do it of course, but I haven't played a modern one of that level. My cheaper ones certainly can't do it.
EskimoArapaho said:
Super Slo Mo said:
In my experience, without that 256 note polyphony, it can't do some of the things a real piano can, as in my initial example above, which is admittedly a fairly limited situation, but the resonance of the harmonics isn't the same by a long shot, even on a 128 polyphony piano.
I would hope an expensive DP can do it of course, but I haven't played a modern one of that level. My cheaper ones certainly can't do it.
If it does mimic the sympathetic resonance of other strings then yes, hitting one key would create several other notes (very quietly). But as soon as those notes are themselves struck via the keyboard, the initial resonance is lost and the string's own note is sounded - i.e. replacing its sympathetic resonance. So there are still just 88 notes of polyphony needed.I would hope an expensive DP can do it of course, but I haven't played a modern one of that level. My cheaper ones certainly can't do it.
At least, that's what mine are doing, and neither of them sounds anything like a real piano when I'm using the sustain pedal as they keep dropping the resonating and the sustaining notes.
As I said before though, perhaps the more expensive units don't do this, but then that's probably due to them having 256 polyphonic notes.
EskimoArapaho said:
Hoofy said:
It has numerous voices.
Percussion, bass, strings, brass, woodwind, etc? Synths, basses and pads? That would make sense.Or just numerous piano/etc voices (where you'd still never need 256 notes of polyphony)?
pistonheadforum said:
Thanks for trying but my brain still hurts!
I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
For the digital unit you're looking at, if you composed a piece on the recording function, you might have a piano sustaining an open chord with 10 notes plus a melody being played during that bar. That might be 30 notes used up. I understand on the Roland that notes can be dropped (64 note poliphony) but there are only 88 keys on a digital piano hence the confusion - how can you play that 89th note!
On genuine piano there are 88 strings so by definition surely a real piano only has 88 note poliphony?
Maybe it's only needed for the other voices (synth voices) and as a pure piano 88 note poliphony is all you would need?
Meantime, a string quartet track holding a chord with 10 notes being played. That's 40 notes.
A saxophone playing (I have no idea if that happens but you might want to) hitting another 5 notes.
A flute playing chords - 5 notes.
50 notes currently held.
A Rhodes piano using similar chords to the first piano for effect. Another 30 notes.
So, 80 now.
Throw in an atmospheric synth (I dunno, you might want to) holding 10 notes.
90.
A classical guitar doing some strumming - 10 notes.
You're now hitting 100 notes playing at the same time. That's only 7 tracks used up. You have another 9 instruments to add for a unique mess of a song.
How about a church organ! A drum loop? A spaceship landing!? And let us not forget, a telephone effect sounding like the one Jack Bauer has. And a gunshot.Disastrous said:
Don't forget the "YEAH!" shout and the "Orchestra Hit" (as seen in Owner Of A Lonely Heart).
Good point. Can't have too many scratching effects in a track, either. I always thought Hans Zimmer's Now We Are Free (Gladiator) could have done with more scratching samples. And then finish off with a thunder sample.Hoofy said:
Disastrous said:
Don't forget the "YEAH!" shout and the "Orchestra Hit" (as seen in Owner Of A Lonely Heart).
Good point. Can't have too many scratching effects in a track, either. I always thought Hans Zimmer's Now We Are Free (Gladiator) could have done with more scratching samples. And then finish off with a thunder sample.
This has reminded me of my sixth year studies music composition project now.
The music department had a super-s
t old Roland XP-10 or something with the classic 'SFX' drum kit.For reasons that now elude me, I decided to prelude my piece with the 'soundtrack to a murder', made up of some of the FX.
From memory it went:
"Echoing Footsteps"
"Female Scream"
"Male Laugh" (Played up and down the keyboard for extra mania)
"Punch Effect"
"More laughing and scream"
And then my piece started.
Completely bizarre and must have utterly bemused the examiner now I think of it.
Disastrous said:
This has reminded me of my sixth year studies music composition project now.
The music department had a super-s
t old Roland XP-10 or something with the classic 'SFX' drum kit.For reasons that now elude me, I decided to prelude my piece with the 'soundtrack to a murder', made up of some of the FX.
From memory it went:
"Echoing Footsteps"
"Female Scream"
"Male Laugh" (Played up and down the keyboard for extra mania)
"Punch Effect"
"More laughing and scream"
And then my piece started.
Completely bizarre and must have utterly bemused the examiner now I think of it.
I trust you were a child in the 1980s.
That said, you could probably get a job writing background music for lingscars.com.
Hoofy said:
I trust you were a child in the 1980s.
That said, you could probably get a job writing background music for lingscars.com.
On the upside, when I left, I was allowed to take an absolutely mint SH-101 which had been living on top of a cupboard covered in dust throughout my entire school career.
"That old piece of s
t?? Help yourself..." they said, as I couldn't get it home quick enough. Sold it for a pretty penny a decade later 
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