Referendum....Terms of Brexit
Discussion
My personal preference is this route - but the EU are blocking us knowing the terms of a deal before we trigger article 50.
So, are they doing this to prevent us triggering article 50 out of fear - or because it's the only power they have left over us? We are holding a loaded gun to their head, and all they can do is block pre-50 negotiations.
So, are they doing this to prevent us triggering article 50 out of fear - or because it's the only power they have left over us? We are holding a loaded gun to their head, and all they can do is block pre-50 negotiations.
Puggit said:
My personal preference is this route - but the EU are blocking us knowing the terms of a deal before we trigger article 50.
So, are they doing this to prevent us triggering article 50 out of fear - or because it's the only power they have left over us? We are holding a loaded gun to their head, and all they can do is block pre-50 negotiations.
It's paranoid nonsense like this that has led us to this position...So, are they doing this to prevent us triggering article 50 out of fear - or because it's the only power they have left over us? We are holding a loaded gun to their head, and all they can do is block pre-50 negotiations.
They're not blocking anything, they're urging us to get a move on but as we now currently hold all the cards it's our hand to play. We have to approach them with our negotiating position, which means we have to decide what we want before we can start to negotiate for it. The leave campaign was always quite fractious and divided, it's not really clear at all what the British people actually want at this stage, but it would be in everyone's best interests if we decided what we wanted quite quickly. Has Boris finished playing cricket with his chums yet?
If we are to stay in the common market we will need to accept free movement in the labour market.
If we are to withdraw completely we will need to accept the associated tariffs.
I think this is pretty straight forward but many of our MP's are deliberately trying to muddy things.
We must leave the EU and become a normal country with a sovereign parliament. Westminster has to have full control of the movement of people in and out as does any normal country. Similarly any trade deal/market access must be a normal type of arrangement with no strings attached to do with the free movement of people.
We must leave the EU and become a normal country with a sovereign parliament. Westminster has to have full control of the movement of people in and out as does any normal country. Similarly any trade deal/market access must be a normal type of arrangement with no strings attached to do with the free movement of people.
craig7l said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement
Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
This... but IMO it will be a cold day in hell before the EU lets us have a deal in which it appears they come off second best.Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
Edited by craig7l on Wednesday 29th June 08:27
That said, they DO want a deal, needing us far more than the press would have you believe.
craig7l said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement
Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. We need to negotiate with the the Council of Europe to get rid of that.Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
Anyone who made their decision in the referendum based on ECHR issues is an idiot.
craig7l said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement
Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
When you say 'Free bilateral EU trade agreement' and 'No contributions'; Swiss don't have that nor Norway, why would you think that there is any chance of that. IIRC EU has specifically dismissed that.Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
Edited by craig7l on Wednesday 29th June 08:27
Free bilateral EU trade agreement - no problem
Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 29th June 09:16
Dave Hedgehog said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement - no problem
Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
Can someone, brushstrokes, explain this part. Google failed me.Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
So, we have voted for Brexit, and decided to take the risk. We know the next couple of years could be rocky, but maybe it does present an opportunity to fix some of the problems and to improve our competitiveness.
Before deciding on what might be the best terms of an exit, I would like to see some proper analysis from the Civil Service or an organisation like the IFS on exactly what are the possible options and trade offs, starting with the basic WTO rules and working up to EEA membership.
Crucially, we need to get this information without any bulls
t spin - the time now is for a hard headed assessment on what is in the country's best interest.
Before deciding on what might be the best terms of an exit, I would like to see some proper analysis from the Civil Service or an organisation like the IFS on exactly what are the possible options and trade offs, starting with the basic WTO rules and working up to EEA membership.
Crucially, we need to get this information without any bulls
t spin - the time now is for a hard headed assessment on what is in the country's best interest.EddieSteadyGo said:
So, we have voted for Brexit, and decided to take the risk. We know the next couple of years could be rocky, but maybe it does present an opportunity to fix some of the problems and to improve our competitiveness.
Before deciding on what might be the best terms of an exit, I would like to see some proper analysis from the Civil Service or an organisation like the IFS on exactly what are the possible options and trade offs, starting with the basic WTO rules and working up to EEA membership.
Crucially, we need to get this information without any bullst spin - the time now is for a hard headed assessment on what is in the country's best interest.
Agreed.Before deciding on what might be the best terms of an exit, I would like to see some proper analysis from the Civil Service or an organisation like the IFS on exactly what are the possible options and trade offs, starting with the basic WTO rules and working up to EEA membership.
Crucially, we need to get this information without any bulls
t spin - the time now is for a hard headed assessment on what is in the country's best interest.Whoever takes us forward through Brexit needs to be up front, honest and explain the facts as they really are.
Dave Hedgehog said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement - no problem
Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
How about EU financial services passporting?Access to free movement of people with concessions - will not happen, its not a bolt on to the trade zone its part of the core principal, i.e. a zone where goods, companies and people can move freely about at will, its an all or nothing deal
No contributions - none members have to pay to have access to the trade zone, UKs bill will be about 9 bill a year
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
No European law applicable - we will have to comply with all goods regulations / laws
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 29th June 09:16
Dave Hedgehog said:
No ECHR applicable - this plays into the hands of the tories as it keeps them in check and their cooperate masters, but we will be out of this
When did we decide to leave ECHR and the Council of Europe behind then ? I must have missed that one.marshalla said:
craig7l said:
Free bilateral EU trade agreement
Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. We need to negotiate with the the Council of Europe to get rid of that.Access to free movement of people with concessions
No contributions
No ECHR applicable
No European law applicable
Review of all current European Law by uk parliament
Return of UK border positioning
Anyone who made their decision in the referendum based on ECHR issues is an idiot.
jjlynn27 said:
When you say 'Free bilateral EU trade agreement' and 'No contributions'; Swiss don't have that nor Norway, why would you think that there is any chance of that. IIRC EU has specifically dismissed that.
The Swiss situation is much more complex. They have announced a unilateral safeguard cause on immigration and have till 2017 to implement their 2014 referendum on the matter (so why we think we can do article 50 done & dusted in 2 years is up their with the fairies). They are effectively in the same position as the UK now. How this was totally missed by the leavers in the "lets get the same deal as Norway and Switzerland" is a fking nonsense (like 99% of the sh*te posted on most referendum threads). Free movement of people is totally incompatible with their referendum, surely we should be talking to them on lines of approach (especially as their negotiations with the EU have been announced to go on the back burner).Edited by stongle on Wednesday 29th June 10:08
JagLover said:
Well except for the fact membership is required of all new members and many believe it is required of existing members as well..
What does that have to do with us leaving the EU? We're still Council of Europe members and partial signatories to ECHR and have given no indication that we propose to change that as a result of the referendum.
Edited by marshalla on Wednesday 29th June 10:15
jjlynn27 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
Return of UK border positioning - wont happen if we go into single market, would be disastrous for Ireland
Can someone, brushstrokes, explain this part. Google failed me.We also have a land border to the EU and that is in Northern Ireland, the people there want that border to be transparent and open but it would also present an effective open border to EU citizens (or anyone else who found themselves in Ireland) who want to enter the UK, if that were the case, the implication as that people would make there way from the EU to Ireland and then the Irish would have to stop them or deal with them if they failed to enter the UK.
At least I think that is what he's alluding to.
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