Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?

Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?

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Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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The ‘tonewoods’ debate continues. These are the facts:

1. Tonewoods fanbois claim that if you take an electric guitar whose body is made of a certain type of wood, then change it to a different wood, you will hear a difference in the sound.

2. The rest of claim that it will make no difference.

And there facts end and opinions begin. Here is my take on it:

If you play an acoustic guitar (or indeed any other acoustic string instrument such as a violin, mandolin or even piano) the vibrations from the strings will pass into the body, thence into the surrounding air, producing the sound that reaches the listener’s ears (or the microphone if it’s being recorded.) It is thus logical to conclude that this sound may be affected by the material from which the instrument is made. This explains why some more woods are more common than others, such as spruce for guitar or violin tops, and why solid tops are said to be better than laminated (a posh term for plywood).

An electric guitar, however, produces its sound in a completely different way. The metal strings vibrate in the field of a magnet, thereby inducing a current in a coil of wire wrapped round said magnet. This current then passes to the amplifier, which magnifies it and feeds it into a speaker, thence into the surrounding air, producing the sound for the ears or mike as before. This may bear little or no resemblance to the ‘acoustic’ sound, i.e., what you hear when you play it unplugged.

So how does the wood affect the sound? I say it doesn’t. The job of an electric guitar is to prevent the string vibration entering the body because once it gets there it is lost as far as the pickup is concerned; the magnet can only detect metal, not wood. The more solid the construction, the bridge and the nut are, the more tone and sustain stays in the strings where it belongs. (This was why Les Paul’s initial experiments were done using a length of railroad sleeper.) Therefore, if the guitar’s doing its job properly, vibrations from the strings will not leak away into the body and what it’s made of will make no difference to the amplified sound. (Notice I said ‘amplified’ sound.)

Well that’s my opinion; I’m sure others may differ and I welcome your comments. However they do need to be logical and scientific; Non-sequiturs such as ‘it’s obvious’ or ‘it stands to reason’ will be jumped on and held up to ridicule.

I’d like to make just two more points:

It’s funny that many of the people who are trying to persuade us that some woods sound better than others, have a vested interest in that they build and sell guitars. And it’s a strange coincidence that the woods they say are the best, are also the most expensive.

MiggyA

193 posts

99 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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Evangelion said:
It’s funny that many of the people who are trying to persuade us that some woods sound better than others, have a vested interest in that they build and sell guitars. And it’s a strange coincidence that the woods they say are the best, are also the most expensive.
Yeah, that'll be the main reason for all the bluster. While there will be *some* variations in which frequencies are affected the most by body resonances (read: which frequencies are more quickly sapped away) caused by different materials, the differences are rather tiny and certainly not worth spending huge amounts on fancy woods. For sure there are no convincing videos let alone double blind tests that actually demonstrate any real superiority.

Fancy wood is for looks. Beyond that, a good electric guitar wood just needs to be durable and a good platform for the hardware that is bolted to it.

I have noticed that bassists seem to be even more concerned/superstitious about tone woods than guitarists. It's funny because I use a super cheap second hand bass made of agathis to which I've added new pickups and it sounds good. Conversely I've played with lots of bassists with expensive basses that sounded completely average.

davidd

6,443 posts

283 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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There was a thread on the Bare Knuckle forum about this.

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?t...

Tim Mills (bare knuckle founder and not a seller of said woods) said..

'I don’t want to upset all of the guitar makers, but this reliance on the body timber as being the whole source of the tone is a complete misnomer. My understanding of it, which is based on my own investigations and also having worked with some of the better luthiers in the country, is that the guitar’s voice comes from the pickup. The feel and the resonance and the sustain are a combination of body timber and body construction.

“With pickups, I believe that if you can find the right voice with your guitar pickup, then you will really bring out the best in your guitar. After all, an electric guitar without a pickup doesn’t work. The pickup is the guitar’s mouthpiece; the pickup hears the sound of the strings, but equally the strings are reliant on factors like the timber and the construction as to how resonant they are going to be. That’s when the importance of timber comes into it, but the ‘voicing’ is down to the pickup and how carefully you choose the materials. As with all of these things, it’s a combination of the whole.” '

Lucas CAV

3,021 posts

218 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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davidd said:
There was a thread on the Bare Knuckle forum about this.

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?t...

Tim Mills (bare knuckle founder and not a seller of said woods) said..

'I don’t want to upset all of the guitar makers, but this reliance on the body timber as being the whole source of the tone is a complete misnomer. My understanding of it, which is based on my own investigations and also having worked with some of the better luthiers in the country, is that the guitar’s voice comes from the pickup. The feel and the resonance and the sustain are a combination of body timber and body construction.

“With pickups, I believe that if you can find the right voice with your guitar pickup, then you will really bring out the best in your guitar. After all, an electric guitar without a pickup doesn’t work. The pickup is the guitar’s mouthpiece; the pickup hears the sound of the strings, but equally the strings are reliant on factors like the timber and the construction as to how resonant they are going to be. That’s when the importance of timber comes into it, but the ‘voicing’ is down to the pickup and how carefully you choose the materials. As with all of these things, it’s a combination of the whole.” '
"Not a seller of said woods" but very much a seller of said pickups!

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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I agree that the pickup is the most important factor in determining the guitar's sound, but the neck comes a close second. (Again, just an opinion, but one based on years of experience and much listening to people who know what they're talking about.)

JoeCastle

572 posts

121 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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Everything affects the tone. Strings, hardware, body wood, neck, fretboard, pickups, electronics, whether it's neck through/set-neck/bolt-on. To say the wood is all is equally as ridiculous as saying the wood is nothing. It's the "Tone is in the fingers/amp" argument again and I actually think Mr. Bareknuckle has it pretty right.

JoeCastle

572 posts

121 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Pine actually sounds pretty great. The Modern Player Tele is a great value for money guitar and the CC 100 years old pine CS Strat was fantastic. Only issue is when you drop it...

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
quotequote all
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
I'm saying that the contribution of the wood is so minimal that the effect of changing to a different wood will be inaudible, therefore the idea that different woods sound different is illogical.

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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I'm saying this: Everything on the instrument contributes something to the sound. The type of pickups, the number of pickups, their positions, the type of wire and number of turns, the type and strength of the magnets, the values and tapers of the pots, whether it's a trem or a hardtail, strings through the body or not, the material and gauge of strings, the scale length, whether the neck is bolt-on, fixed or through, whether the head is six in a row or three on a side, etc. And I haven't even mentioned the setup; action, relief and pickup height (these I consider to be particularly important).

If the wood makes any contribution, it's a drop in the ocean compared to all these other factors.

JoeCastle

572 posts

121 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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Has anyone ever seen the 24 fret guitars sound better than any other number argument? Something that Ed Roman has always preached.

Lucas CAV

3,021 posts

218 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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JoeCastle said:
Has anyone ever seen the 24 fret guitars sound better than any other number argument? Something that Ed Roman has always preached.
What does better mean?

JoeCastle

572 posts

121 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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Lucas CAV said:
What does better mean?
Well, as Ed Roman has the laws of physics to back him up, better than any guitar with 22 or 21 frets wobblehttp://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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JoeCastle said:
Lucas CAV said:
What does better mean?
Well, as Ed Roman has the laws of physics to back him up, better than any guitar with 22 or 21 frets wobblehttp://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm
I can see the logic behind that, if what he says about the different position of the neck pickup is correct. But of course you don't have to play chords on the neck pickup of a Les Paul, I've always used both together. I also don't understand why having 24 frets will change the string tension unless other changes are made too. I must have read that bit wrong.

(Don't forget what I said before - this guy is trying to persuade you to buy the guitars he builds.)

MiggyA

193 posts

99 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
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JoeCastle said:
Has anyone ever seen the 24 fret guitars sound better than any other number argument? Something that Ed Roman has always preached.
Read that years ago, it is pretty stupid. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about waves can see that while, yes, moving the neck pickup will result in a different sound, as far as nodes go they all move anyway as soon as you play anything other than an open string.

That isn't to say it doesn't matter because it does, but one is not objectively superior to the other, they just have a slightly different range of tone available at each fret that might suit you more or less.

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Wednesday 21st September 2016
quotequote all
MiggyA said:
... as far as nodes go they all move anyway as soon as you play anything other than an open string.
No I got that bit, he's saying that if you play a Les Paul at the 5th, 7th, 12th fret etc., it will put the node over the neck pickup. He then goes on to claim that with 24 frets it doesn't, because the neck pickup is in a different place. It will however take a fair bit of thought to decide whether he's correct or not, and I'm not sure I'm capable of that much thought at my age.

(Notice he makes no mention of how all this will affect the bridge pickup.)

dojo

741 posts

134 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
I built a partscaster tele using a Sugar Pine body. Sounds awesome, although thats prob because i'm running a bareknuckle brown sugar and TV Jones Filtertron in it biggrin

Lets be honest the real difference comes down to the player, a great player will be able to work whatever guitar they play (as long as the intonation is ok) and a bad guitarist will always sound bad!!

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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Balsa's a crap example too, as it wouldn't be strong enough to hold everything together!

(Unless, of course, someone out there has tried it and knows different.)

AdeTuono

7,240 posts

226 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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From the 'other' thread, in case some haven't seen it.

http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/2014/12/28/t...

I'm saying nowt, other than, yes, I can tell the difference. I'm also well aware of the "Emperor's new clothes' argument.


Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,641 posts

177 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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Yes, but so far no one's actually said why one wood has to sound different from another. It just seems to be something that's stated, and you're not supposed to disagree with it.

JoeCastle

572 posts

121 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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The density and tightness of grain are the two main factors normally stated. Again, I think it's a case of people over exaggerating just how much the wood does. When people say "Maple gives your guitar lots more bite" people are (naturally) expecting the absolute extreme, as they would with a change in Pickup when really it will be more subtle than that.

It's also interesting that with Guitar construction nowadays, we might not be getting the full experience of the Tonewoods. Gibson for example, weight relief, grain filler, clear coats etc. are all factors. I played a First Act custom next to a modern Les Paul. Unplugged, the First act was more resonant, had a darker and more "Full" and bassy tone. No weight relief in the custom and a basic finish with the same woods used. The characteristics were also there when we played through a 2203 800, VH4 and Thunderverb (again the pickups etc will come into play, but the characteristics certainly sounded there)