Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?

Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?

Author
Discussion

Mave

8,208 posts

214 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?
Irrelevant question. Of course not. Who said they vibrate differently whether plugged in or not??
Its totally relevant. If the strings don't know whether the guitar is plugged in or not, then the influence of the wood on what the strings are doing must be identical whether you're playing the guitar electrically or acoustically.
I think you've missed a couple of steps here.
Which ones?

singlecoil

33,309 posts

245 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?
Irrelevant question. Of course not. Who said they vibrate differently whether plugged in or not??
Its totally relevant. If the strings don't know whether the guitar is plugged in or not, then the influence of the wood on what the strings are doing must be identical whether you're playing the guitar electrically or acoustically.
I think you've missed a couple of steps here.
Which ones?
The strings will be vibrating the same way, but what you hear when it's plugged in includes the effect of the amplification system and the speakers for a start.

Lotus 50

1,009 posts

164 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
It's amazing how much this topic gets discussed on the inter web... my take on it is that wood does have an effect but not necessarily as may have been suggested here. The material that a guitar is made from doesn't 'contribute to the vibrations' unless you are getting feedback (e.g. when playing and acoustic/semi-acoustic through an amp/pa). What it does is it absorbs a component of the vibrations from the strings and different materials (and different woods) will absorb different parts of the frequency spectrum and thus impart a tone to the instrument. If you make a guitar out of a material that absorbs vibrations (or if you use a material that is structurally flawed) it will most likely sound dead and have no sustain. If you make one out of a material that doesn't absorb any of the vibrations (if such a material were to exist) then you'd retain all of the harmonics of the vibrating string and it would sustain until the damping effect of the air surrounding the string caused it to stop vibrating. Consequently different woods will indeed have an effect on the tone of the guitar because different woods will absorb different harmonics, as would using different quality wood of the same type. The construction of the guitar will also have an effect. This would be much more noticeable in an acoustic guitar than an electric guitar as people have already said but it's about how the material absorbs frequencies generated by the string rather than anything else. Of course the pickups and amplifiers will have a significant effect but even with an electric guitar the wood it's made of does have an effect. Tone woods are simply good quality pieces of woods that absorb vibrations in a known (and pleasing) way so using them is likely to increase the chances of a guitar having predictable and good tonal properties but you might get the same from using other wood (or indeed other materials). That said if you screw up the construction of a guitar built from the best tone woods it'll still sound bad - e.g. if you don't have a good neck joint.

So I'm on the "yes they do have an effect, but so does lots of other stuff" side of the fence!


Edited by Lotus 50 on Friday 23 September 16:13

Mave

8,208 posts

214 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
singlecoil said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?
Irrelevant question. Of course not. Who said they vibrate differently whether plugged in or not??
Its totally relevant. If the strings don't know whether the guitar is plugged in or not, then the influence of the wood on what the strings are doing must be identical whether you're playing the guitar electrically or acoustically.
I think you've missed a couple of steps here.
Which ones?
The strings will be vibrating the same way, but what you hear when it's plugged in includes the effect of the amplification system and the speakers for a start.
I agree. But are you saying that the way that the strings vibrate (which you agree is the same whether or not the guitar is plugged in) is independent of the wood, or dependent on the wood?

Mave

8,208 posts

214 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Lotus 50 said:
It's amazing how much this topic gets discussed on the inter web... my take on it is that wood does have an effect but not necessarily as may have been suggested here. The material that a guitar is made from doesn't 'contribute to the vibrations' unless you are getting feedback (e.g. when playing and acoustic/semi-acoustic through an amp/pa). What it does is it absorbs a component of the vibrations from the strings and different materials (and different woods) will absorb different parts of the frequency spectrum and thus impart a tone to the instrument. If you make a guitar out of a material that absorbs vibrations (or if you use a material that is structurally flawed) it will most likely sound dead and have no sustain. If you make one out of a material that doesn't absorb any of the vibrations (if such a material were to exist) then you'd retain all of the harmonics of the vibrating string and it would sustain until the damping effect of the air surrounding the string caused it to stop vibrating. Consequently different woods will indeed have an effect on the tone of the guitar because different woods will absorb different harmonics, as would using different quality wood of the same type. The construction of the guitar will also have an effect. This would be much more noticeable in an acoustic guitar than an electric guitar as people have already said but it's about how the material absorbs frequencies generated by the string rather than anything else. Of course the pickups and amplifiers will have a significant effect but even with an electric guitar the wood it's made of does have an effect. Tone woods are simply good quality pieces of woods that absorb vibrations in a known (and pleasing) way so using them is likely to increase the chances of a guitar having predictable and good tonal properties but you might get the same from using other wood (or indeed other materials). That said if you screw up the construction of a guitar built from the best tone woods it'll still sound bad - e.g. if you don't have a good neck joint.

So I'm on the "yes they do have an effect, but so does lots of other stuff" side of the fence!


Edited by Lotus 50 on Friday 23 September 16:13
Spot on ;-)

singlecoil

33,309 posts

245 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Mave said:
I agree. But are you saying that the way that the strings vibrate (which you agree is the same whether or not the guitar is plugged in) is independent of the wood, or dependent on the wood?
Since we are talking about sound in the context of what can be heard and not heard, then I am saying that outside of ridiculous comparisons such as balsa v lignum vitae then there is no difference that can be heard between two woods of the types used to make electric guitars (unless there is a substantial difference in weight).

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,638 posts

177 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Mave said:
I agree. But are you saying that the way that the strings vibrate (which you agree is the same whether or not the guitar is plugged in) is independent of the wood, or dependent on the wood?
I am of course saying independent. But even if wood does have an effect, whatever that may be, why do people imagine that different types of woods will have different effects? I did ask before, "What is this mysterious 'difference' between woods?", but I notice nobody answered.

And in case you say density, here is a list of the relative densities between woods used to make guitar bodies:

Alder 0.4 – 0.7
Ash 0.65 – 0.85
Basswood 0.3 – 0.6
Mahogany 0.5 – 0.85
Obeche 0.39
Pine 0.35 – 0.67
Poplar 0.35 – 0.5
Sycamore 0.4 – 0.6

Notice that in some cases there is more variation within single types of wood, than between different types of wood.

Mave

8,208 posts

214 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Mave said:
I agree. But are you saying that the way that the strings vibrate (which you agree is the same whether or not the guitar is plugged in) is independent of the wood, or dependent on the wood?
I am of course saying independent. But even if wood does have an effect, whatever that may be, why do people imagine that different types of woods will have different effects? I did ask before, "What is this mysterious 'difference' between woods?", but I notice nobody answered.

That may be because you aren't actually listening to people's answers? I answered your slightly ambiguous question with two separate replies.

Evangelion said:
And in case you say density, here is a list of the relative densities between woods used to make guitar bodies:

Alder 0.4 – 0.7
Ash 0.65 – 0.85
Basswood 0.3 – 0.6
Mahogany 0.5 – 0.85
Obeche 0.39
Pine 0.35 – 0.67
Poplar 0.35 – 0.5
Sycamore 0.4 – 0.6

Notice that in some cases there is more variation within single types of wood, than between different types of wood.
I did say density. I also said stiffness. I didn't go so far as to say damping, but that comes into it as well.

You've quoted density values above so I assume you believe they are true - so which bit of the relationship between differences in vibration being caused by significant differences in density do you doubt?

OldSkoolRS

6,717 posts

178 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
I thought of this thread when I saw this one on My Les Paul:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3...

"Do you think guitars has (sic) break in period?"

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,638 posts

177 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
OldSkoolRS said:
I thought of this thread when I saw this one on My Les Paul:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3...

"Do you think guitars has (sic) break in period?"
Interesting thread although I have a feeling many of the comments are tongue in cheek.

I can't see the point of putting it in the attic for a few years. I tried that with a girlfriend once, and never heard the end of it.

Lotus 50

1,009 posts

164 months

Saturday 24th September 2016
quotequote all
There is likely to be something in the "old wood" idea - basically over time the wood dries out and they way it absorbs vibrations from the strings will change. One of the things some makers have started doing is cooking wood in an oxygen free oven to remove moisture and "caramelise" the wood. This would change the properties of the wood and, probably, make it less susceptible to changes in humidity.

Overall in answer to your original question re scientifically sound or just a load of BS - well yes there are scientifically sound reasons why they could. Whether or not the individual playing the guitar - or listening to it would be able to hear a difference is moot.

singlecoil

33,309 posts

245 months

Saturday 24th September 2016
quotequote all
Lotus 50 said:
Whether or not the individual playing the guitar - or listening to it would be able to hear a difference is moot.
And of course, completely unprovable.

The same old wood bullst is claimed about violins, but in the case of violins it's a lot easier to prove that no, the difference is not audible.

http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/blind-tested-s...

Nevertheless it's entirely reasonable for players to prefer older guitars if they are what they feel comfortable with simply because they are artists and should be allowed a little leeway.

Evangelion

Original Poster:

7,638 posts

177 months

Saturday 24th September 2016
quotequote all
Plus there's also the psychological aspect in that an instrument which makes you feel better, can inspire you to play better.
(This is why I think necks are really important.)

singlecoil

33,309 posts

245 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
That's not an age issue, that's a moisture content issue. The wood had not been dried sufficiently before the neck was fretted.

If you left that guitar in your garden shed for while the neck would have expanded across its width and the problem would have gone (only to reappear when the guitar was brought back into the warm and dry).

lockhart flawse

2,040 posts

234 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
Tonewoods - total bks IMHO. Differences will be minute. I played in bands with people who would start playing the wrong song and not realise until we were a good few bars in so if they can't even hear that what they are playing is completely wrong then they will hardly be able to hear the "difference" between one wood and another. And as for the huge majority of non-musicians - not a chance.

Anyway what does a guitar sound like? We have in our minds a generic Gibson/Marshall sound or whatever and any variation on that sound is nether better nor worse, just different.

I think the only bit that matters is the neck and particularly the fingerboard. I prefer or think I prefer a wider neck with a softer rosewood neck than a hard strat maple neck. But for all I know the maple might be softer. Perception is all.

In my opinion in order of effect on the sound are:

pick ups
amp
strings
player
room

and way down the list

"tonewoods".

Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
On the subject, I was thinking some more about this.

To the people who say that the wood is affecting the vibration of the string, the string would still be vibrating at say, 440Hz for an A right?

Is that not all that a pickup can well, pick up? The frequency and the sustain?

It makes me think that even strings should be irrelevant to the electric sound.

AdeTuono

7,240 posts

226 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
Disastrous said:
It makes me think that even strings should be irrelevant to the electric sound.
But they're not, are they? There's a massive difference between a new set, and the old, sweat/grime encrusted ones you take off. If they can make so much difference, then why not wood?

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
As Zappa/Central Scrutinizer so eloquently put it

"...imaginary guitar notes and imaginary vocals exist only in the imagination of The Imaginer, and ultimately, who gives a fk anyway? So-- So-- Excuse me. So, who gives a fk anyway? "


Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
AdeTuono said:
Disastrous said:
It makes me think that even strings should be irrelevant to the electric sound.
But they're not, are they? There's a massive difference between a new set, and the old, sweat/grime encrusted ones you take off. If they can make so much difference, then why not wood?
Is there though? Sure you can hear the difference unplugged, but I'm not convinced you can once it's plugged in...

ETA - and to answer your question: because pickups don't work microphonically.

Edited by Disastrous on Tuesday 27th September 15:54

OldSkoolRS

6,717 posts

178 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
That should be easy to prove; just record directly into something like Garageband and then restring and record the same track again with the same settings.

I'll be very surprised if the sound isn't brighter with the new strings as I've always noticed how much better my Strat sounds with a new set on, but try it for yourself with Garageband or whatever.