Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?
Discussion
Evangelion said:
Yes, but so far no one's actually said why one wood has to sound different from another. It just seems to be something that's stated, and you're not supposed to disagree with it.
A simple thought experiment can consider the electric guitar as two springs in parallel, joined at the bridge and nut. One in tension, on in compression.If the one in compression (the neck + body) is infinitely stiff (which is what the Les Paul rig test example tries to achieve) then the means by which you achieve that stiffness is irrelevant, and can't affect the strings.
If the one in compression is less than infinitely stiff, then it will interact with the string vibration like any spring / mass / damper system. Different woods, shapes, and joints will affect the natural frequencies / stiffness / damping that interacts with the strings.
If you acknowledge that the neck affects the tone, then there is no fundamental reason why you wouldn't accept that the body can as well.
If Mr Bareknuckles acknowledges that the body can affect sustain then he must also be acknowledging this interaction. How can the body affect the strings if it isn't affecting the strings?
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A ridiculous question, drums are acoustic instruments, not electric, the entire drum vibrates and contributes to the sound.I don't doubt that the body of an electric guitar vibrates; after all you can feel it. What I don't understand is why people think that vibration can get into the pickups, when pickups are magnetic devices that can only 'hear' metal, not wood. What part of this can people not understand?
Evangelion said:
I don't doubt that the body of an electric guitar vibrates; after all you can feel it. What I don't understand is why people think that vibration can get into the pickups, when pickups are magnetic devices that can only 'hear' metal, not wood. What part of this can people not understand?
Can you honestly not hear the difference between the sound clips in the Sandberg link?Evangelion said:
Nanook said:
OP, do you think all drums sound the same if they all have the same skin on them?
A ridiculous question, drums are acoustic instruments, not electric, the entire drum vibrates and contributes to the sound.I don't doubt that the body of an electric guitar vibrates; after all you can feel it. What I don't understand is why people think that vibration can get into the pickups, when pickups are magnetic devices that can only 'hear' metal, not wood. What part of this can people not understand?
Edited by Mave on Thursday 22 September 22:23
Seems to me like people have actually repeatedly explained why that is (see the post just before yours). Here it is one more time in different words, then.
Different materials have different resonant properties, for example a piece of cardboard vs a piece of hard steel. Vibrations from the guitar string induce vibrations in this material. Clearly if if the wood is vibrating, that means the mounting point of the string is moving also. That changes the behaviour of the string which will then change what the pickup detects.
Nothing much mysterious about that, just physics. Theory aside, the difference is tiny enough to not really matter much.
Different materials have different resonant properties, for example a piece of cardboard vs a piece of hard steel. Vibrations from the guitar string induce vibrations in this material. Clearly if if the wood is vibrating, that means the mounting point of the string is moving also. That changes the behaviour of the string which will then change what the pickup detects.
Nothing much mysterious about that, just physics. Theory aside, the difference is tiny enough to not really matter much.
Evangelion said:
What I don't understand is, why people seem to think there is this mysterious 'difference' between woods because so far, no-one has been able to explain what it is.
There's nothing mysterious about it. Woods are different. You acknowledged it yourself when you talked about acoustic instruments. There is absolutely no viable opinion that says different woods have the same densities or stiffnesses. Which bit of what people have explained don't you understand?Edited by Mave on Friday 23 September 07:56
I can get that the wood used in the neck and body affect sustain for example, but that's a mechanical function and not part of the 'sound' or tone of the guitar.
Wood cannot change the entirely electrically generated tone of a metal string and a magnetic pickup.
Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
Wood cannot change the entirely electrically generated tone of a metal string and a magnetic pickup.
Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
Nanook said:
Disastrous said:
I can get that the wood used in the neck and body affect sustain for example, but that's a mechanical function and not part of the 'sound' or tone of the guitar.
Sorry, what?! You think those are 2 different things. They are not.Disastrous said:
Wood cannot change the entirely electrically generated tone of a metal string and a magnetic pickup.
Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
Pluck a string on your electric guitar with it unplugged. Does it make a noise? But only the strings and pickups can impact that noise? Nothing else?Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
Think about it.
Does your unplugged electric sound even remotely similar to how it sounds plugged in? Think about it...
Also, sustain is not part of the sound. It's a mechanical component. If you think it is, then I can see where the confusion is and it sounds like we all agree
ETA - I'm the first to agree that choice of wood affects intangibles like how it plays, how it 'feels' and so on, but the fact remains, if you could magically float your strings and your pickups in thin air, plugged into your amp, your guitar would 'sound' the same.
Edited by Disastrous on Friday 23 September 09:47
Must be Tone-Cardboard 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oo2H-W7d6A
My take on it - Acoustic Guitars, yes the wood it's made from has massive part to play in the sound of the guitar, as does the tickness of the body, bracing, scale length, size of body etc.
Electric Guitar - not so much, if there is a difference it's almost imperceptible. It's more down to the electrics, scale length and hardware used than if it's bass wood, swamp ash or alder.
Yes a PRS with a 'AAA+' quilted top looks gorgeous and plays and sounds great but is the sound that different from the same guitar with a lesser top and the same electrics?
Like everything it's down to individual beliefs or feelings - there will always be people who fall on either side of the fence, this debate will never end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oo2H-W7d6A
My take on it - Acoustic Guitars, yes the wood it's made from has massive part to play in the sound of the guitar, as does the tickness of the body, bracing, scale length, size of body etc.
Electric Guitar - not so much, if there is a difference it's almost imperceptible. It's more down to the electrics, scale length and hardware used than if it's bass wood, swamp ash or alder.
Yes a PRS with a 'AAA+' quilted top looks gorgeous and plays and sounds great but is the sound that different from the same guitar with a lesser top and the same electrics?
Like everything it's down to individual beliefs or feelings - there will always be people who fall on either side of the fence, this debate will never end.
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Piezo pickups are not magnetic though, they're made of crystals that create an electrical current when they're squeezed. It's like having a little microphone in your guitar.(And by the way, I've never thought they gave an authentic acoustic sound. If I want to record or amplify an acoustic, I just shove a real microphone in front of it.)
Nanook said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Does your unplugged electric sound even remotely similar to how it sounds plugged in? Think about it...
Also, sustain is not part of the sound. It's a mechanical component. If you think it is, then I can see where the confusion is and it sounds like we all agree
ETA - I'm the first to agree that choice of wood affects intangibles like how it plays, how it 'feels' and so on, but the fact remains, if you could magically float your strings and your pickups in thin air, plugged into your amp, your guitar would 'sound' the same.
There's so much wrong there, I'm not even going to bother. It's not just opinion, it's not just semantics, you just don't get the physics.Does your unplugged electric sound even remotely similar to how it sounds plugged in? Think about it...
Also, sustain is not part of the sound. It's a mechanical component. If you think it is, then I can see where the confusion is and it sounds like we all agree
ETA - I'm the first to agree that choice of wood affects intangibles like how it plays, how it 'feels' and so on, but the fact remains, if you could magically float your strings and your pickups in thin air, plugged into your amp, your guitar would 'sound' the same.
Edited by Disastrous on Friday 23 September 09:47
I stopped short of saying exactly the same about the physics to you in my post
You sound a lot more angry about it though so I'm sorry if it bothers you.
One final thing for you to think about - do you think pickups are acoustic/microphonic? If so, I can see where you would be basing your opinion. A lot of people believe that they are, but of course they aren't. It's simply a magnetic interaction, not an acoustic one so to try and pretend that anything else impacts the sound is nonsense. You sound like one of those people who believes that 'oxygen free unidirectional audio cable' make a hifi sound better.
Violinists, who are arguably more tuned to the nuance of the acoustic sound of their instrument than most, when playing electric violins frequently have weird and wonderful shapes made out of plastic and so on. You think they'd be more fussy if it has such an effect on the sound...
ETA - apologies, I'm sounding unnecessary argumentative today. I'm not meaning to be rude about it. I'm suffering from a stomach so perhaps it's that. Anyway, as I say, not intending to be an arse about it.
Edited by Disastrous on Friday 23 September 12:15
Interesting post, thanks.
I think your 'naked ear' point is crucial though. If it can't be heard, then what an oscilloscope might show is pretty irrelevant, no? That's what I was getting at with my 'magical guitar' idea. I appreciate that it can't be done but do engineers not indulge in thought experiments to illustrate ideas?
It actually sounds as though we sort of agree - I'm not really disputing that everything in a guitar will affect the acoustic sound. I'm just sceptical that a magnetic pickup can possibly 'hear' any of that, once you go electric.
Anyway, I suspect it's an 'agree to differ' thing. I studied music with acoustics and techniques so I'm not a scientist but have a bit of relevant experience I think. I play guitar as my main instrument and have a range of instruments, all with different woods/pickups (Gretsch hollow body and a Tele, for instance) and for me, it's the pickups and the amp that make the audible difference.
I think your 'naked ear' point is crucial though. If it can't be heard, then what an oscilloscope might show is pretty irrelevant, no? That's what I was getting at with my 'magical guitar' idea. I appreciate that it can't be done but do engineers not indulge in thought experiments to illustrate ideas?
It actually sounds as though we sort of agree - I'm not really disputing that everything in a guitar will affect the acoustic sound. I'm just sceptical that a magnetic pickup can possibly 'hear' any of that, once you go electric.
Anyway, I suspect it's an 'agree to differ' thing. I studied music with acoustics and techniques so I'm not a scientist but have a bit of relevant experience I think. I play guitar as my main instrument and have a range of instruments, all with different woods/pickups (Gretsch hollow body and a Tele, for instance) and for me, it's the pickups and the amp that make the audible difference.
Disastrous said:
I can get that the wood used in the neck and body affect sustain for example, but that's a mechanical function and not part of the 'sound' or tone of the guitar.
Wood cannot change the entirely electrically generated tone of a metal string and a magnetic pickup.
Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
Take the pickups out of the equation and just consider the strings.Wood cannot change the entirely electrically generated tone of a metal string and a magnetic pickup.
Pickups, amp and strings are what gives you a sound.
If you agree that the wood affects the sustain, then do you agree that it affects the way the string vibrates?
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?Nanook said:
Disastrous said:
Interesting post, thanks.
I think your 'naked ear' point is crucial though. If it can't be heard, then what an oscilloscope might show is pretty irrelevant, no? That's what I was getting at with my 'magical guitar' idea. I appreciate that it can't be done but do engineers not indulge in thought experiments to illustrate ideas?
It actually sounds as though we sort of agree - I'm not really disputing that everything in a guitar will affect the acoustic sound. I'm just sceptical that a magnetic pickup can possibly 'hear' any of that, once you go electric.
Anyway, I suspect it's an 'agree to differ' thing. I studied music with acoustics and techniques so I'm not a scientist but have a bit of relevant experience I think. I play guitar as my main instrument and have a range of instruments, all with different woods/pickups (Gretsch hollow body and a Tele, for instance) and for me, it's the pickups and the amp that make the audible difference.
Sounds like we're not far off it, yeahI think your 'naked ear' point is crucial though. If it can't be heard, then what an oscilloscope might show is pretty irrelevant, no? That's what I was getting at with my 'magical guitar' idea. I appreciate that it can't be done but do engineers not indulge in thought experiments to illustrate ideas?
It actually sounds as though we sort of agree - I'm not really disputing that everything in a guitar will affect the acoustic sound. I'm just sceptical that a magnetic pickup can possibly 'hear' any of that, once you go electric.
Anyway, I suspect it's an 'agree to differ' thing. I studied music with acoustics and techniques so I'm not a scientist but have a bit of relevant experience I think. I play guitar as my main instrument and have a range of instruments, all with different woods/pickups (Gretsch hollow body and a Tele, for instance) and for me, it's the pickups and the amp that make the audible difference.
Thought experiments, yes, but considering 2 ends of a string suspended rigidly in space wouldn't really tell us anything I don't think.
He's a thought though. I agree, pickups pickup position, and amplifiers make the biggest difference. Construction is important as well, neck through, bolt on, whatever.
But if, for you, the amp and pickups make the audible difference, why do you need a hollow body Gretch (White Falcon is on my 'to own' list) and a Telecaster?
Did you buy them based on the pickups they have, and therefore the noise they'll produce? Obviously there are many other factors to consider, number of frets, neck profile, radius, etc. but if pickups are the only thing that make the difference, why do we even make hollow body guitars like your Gretch, 335s, Coronados etc.?
Beyond that, yeah, they sound different which to me is a pickup thing but they also play differently, and that to me is where the wood and hardware really come into play. I like how the Gretsch feels, but that is something entirely personal I guess...
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Mave said:
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I don't need to 'think about it' thanks, as it's childishly simple. Unplugged, it is an acoustic guitar. Plugged in, it is an electric guitar...one has no bearing n the other.
Do you think that the strings know whether or not the guitar is plugged in when they're deciding how to vibrate?I like these discussions, I think we had one before on this forum.
My take on it is that guitar players are artists, and artists are entitled to be affected by their attitude toward the instrument they are using. So if they think they can here a difference between (for instance) a maple neck Strat and a rosewood neck one then I'm not going to argue with them (and will keep my disagreement to myself)
My take on it is that guitar players are artists, and artists are entitled to be affected by their attitude toward the instrument they are using. So if they think they can here a difference between (for instance) a maple neck Strat and a rosewood neck one then I'm not going to argue with them (and will keep my disagreement to myself
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