Lets look at our guitars thread
Discussion
neal1980 said:
Whats the appeal with the older stats ??
Regular posters can correct me if I'm wrong but that's a hugely desirable instrument for the following reasons:CBS bought Fender in 1965 & essentially turned a largely hand made artisan instrument into a mass produced item. Why? UK/US Pop/guitar music/bands exploded in popularity, in the early 1960's & millions of american teenagers suddenly all wanted to play guitar. CBS churned them out like jelly babies & the quality suffered. Also, (& this is the bit I'm not sure about), over the next few decades, the worlds supply of virgin, properly aged hardwoods practically disappeared. Either through deforestation, or environmental protection measures put in place to stop deforestation. You just can't get those woods: they literally don't make them like that any more.
An earlier poster said "holy grail". That's not hyperbole. Have a google around - they can go for £20k+. The great thing though, if you do play, is like a vintage violin, they need to be played, not stuck in a de-humidifed glass pension plan. Having said that, if you're young & wondering where your house deposit, wedding or a nice reliable set of wheels is going to come from...
CardinalFang said:
Also, (& this is the bit I'm not sure about), over the next few decades, the worlds supply of virgin, properly aged hardwoods practically disappeared. Either through deforestation, or environmental protection measures put in place to stop deforestation. You just can't get those woods: they literally don't make them like that any more.
There is a lot of nostalgia around vintage instruments & its worth remembering that most of the decisions made by Fender were cost and/or speed of production related. For example we like to wax lyrical about a nitro finish but had poly been around then Leo would have used that . The same goes for the woods, they used whatever ash (and then alder) they could that was in spec and available. The guitars were very much lashed together and if you have a chance to look closely at an early body then the routing will likely be a bit messy, the body thickness will not be particularly consistent (none of which matters!). Of course CBS came along and quality went down but objectively speaking it was never that much of a priority to start with.None of that should take away from what is a lovely piece of history & IMO should be played and enjoyed :-)
CardinalFang said:
Regular posters can correct me if I'm wrong but that's a hugely desirable instrument for the following reasons:
CBS bought Fender in 1965 & essentially turned a largely hand made artisan instrument into a mass produced item. Why? UK/US Pop/guitar music/bands exploded in popularity, in the early 1960's & millions of american teenagers suddenly all wanted to play guitar. CBS churned them out like jelly babies & the quality suffered. Also, (& this is the bit I'm not sure about), over the next few decades, the worlds supply of virgin, properly aged hardwoods practically disappeared. Either through deforestation, or environmental protection measures put in place to stop deforestation. You just can't get those woods: they literally don't make them like that any more.
An earlier poster said "holy grail". That's not hyperbole. Have a google around - they can go for £20k+. The great thing though, if you do play, is like a vintage violin, they need to be played, not stuck in a de-humidifed glass pension plan. Having said that, if you're young & wondering where your house deposit, wedding or a nice reliable set of wheels is going to come from...
That's about the size of it Fang.CBS bought Fender in 1965 & essentially turned a largely hand made artisan instrument into a mass produced item. Why? UK/US Pop/guitar music/bands exploded in popularity, in the early 1960's & millions of american teenagers suddenly all wanted to play guitar. CBS churned them out like jelly babies & the quality suffered. Also, (& this is the bit I'm not sure about), over the next few decades, the worlds supply of virgin, properly aged hardwoods practically disappeared. Either through deforestation, or environmental protection measures put in place to stop deforestation. You just can't get those woods: they literally don't make them like that any more.
An earlier poster said "holy grail". That's not hyperbole. Have a google around - they can go for £20k+. The great thing though, if you do play, is like a vintage violin, they need to be played, not stuck in a de-humidifed glass pension plan. Having said that, if you're young & wondering where your house deposit, wedding or a nice reliable set of wheels is going to come from...
Fender used both ash and alder in the early days (prototype Teles had used pine!) but gravitated to ash because it had a prettier grain pattern which looked better under a sunburst. Then at the end of the 50s, with many people going for custom colours (and decent wood becoming more difficult to get) changed back to alder. This persisted through the 60s but with the coming of the 70s and players going off Fiesta Reds etc., and the emphasis back on sunburst and natural finishes, ash made a comeback.
But by the end of the 70s Fender was getting bad feedback because of very heavy ash bodies. This was partly due to the lack of light wood, but another factor was the amount of guitars they were trying to make which was resulting in corners being cut. A good example of this was body contouring where operators would bandsaw bodies freehand instead of referring to templates. I have a 79 Strat whose rear contour is about right, but the front is almost non existent. It weighs as much as a Les Paul.
Looks gorgeous though - Sienna Sunburst.
neal1980 said:
Whats the appeal with the older stats ??
Rarity and value. It's the same sort of thing that keeps the 964 RS values higher than a superior Porsche 993, if you know what I mean. There is some mythos attached to the pre-CBS guitars but there should be no illusion that they were all made with mystical care and attention by expert luthiers and that they're all amazing instruments. They're not, but the genius of Leo Fender was that he came up with several really good designs in short order that were quick and easy to make, and he was able to corner the market. It also helped that his only real competition was fuddy-duddy rubbish like Gibson.
These days, you could drop £5000 on a Master Built Fender with ease. It could be crafted by Todd Krause himself. It'll be worth £3500 by the time you get it home from the shop, if you're lucky. It'll also be better in every sense than a pre-CBS guitar but it won't hold that specific appeal to collectors, other than to a really experienced eye who can put quality before investment potential. Such is the appeal of these old instruments.
There are some fantastic pre-CBS Fenders out there and it's these that worked their way into the hands of players like Eric Johnson and Jaco Pastorius.
Loyly said:
... There are some fantastic pre-CBS Fenders out there ...
Some being the operative word of course; there can be good and bad in any era.You will frequently hear a lot of old rubbish being spouted about old guitars; a good example being the way people like to draw a line around the CBS period, with a thick, black brush. The moment it started the guitars were rubbish; as soon as it finished they were all brilliant again. Of course it doesn't work like that as any change takes time to work its way through.
I've only ever had one 70s Strat and that one is pretty dire, but I bet there are loads of people out there with good ones.
Indeed, it's not like CBS changed things overnight. I liked the fact they brought back ash bodies, they can sound really cool, weight issues aside. That said, their cost cutting programme did herald an appreciable downturn in quality. What's funnier now is that you can still pay well over the odds for a CBS Fender. Not as much as the mythical instruments from before that time, granted, but enough so one can clearly see their rarity is inflating their value more than their quality! I was also not a fan of the outside headstocks they put on later Strats, but that's an aesthetic complaint.
The only buyout/takeover that I can really remember going south instantly was the Tobias buyout, when Mike Tobias sold his business to Gibson. Tobias had carved a niche building really well made boutique basses which, for whatever reason, Gibson wanted to buy into. Overnight, production moved in-house to Gibson Nashville and players wept as the Gibson builders blundered from one mess to another. They didn't drop the premium pricing either but they did slowly kill off the brand, eventually just using the body shapes they'd acquired to make cheap, foreign made basses. Some buyers received really well made guitars but word quickly got round about how bad the Gibson built basses were in general. Some were documented in pictures that could be seen online and looked quite awful.
Mike Tobias set up MTD guitars and unarguably took his craft to another levek whilst Gibson learned that it takes more than a name to cut it in the boutique bass world. This was around the same time that they were running Trace Elliot into the ground.
The only buyout/takeover that I can really remember going south instantly was the Tobias buyout, when Mike Tobias sold his business to Gibson. Tobias had carved a niche building really well made boutique basses which, for whatever reason, Gibson wanted to buy into. Overnight, production moved in-house to Gibson Nashville and players wept as the Gibson builders blundered from one mess to another. They didn't drop the premium pricing either but they did slowly kill off the brand, eventually just using the body shapes they'd acquired to make cheap, foreign made basses. Some buyers received really well made guitars but word quickly got round about how bad the Gibson built basses were in general. Some were documented in pictures that could be seen online and looked quite awful.
Mike Tobias set up MTD guitars and unarguably took his craft to another levek whilst Gibson learned that it takes more than a name to cut it in the boutique bass world. This was around the same time that they were running Trace Elliot into the ground.
languagetimothy said:
That 61 Strat.... mmm nice. Please be careful with it if you're new to guitars it's a lovely thing a joy to play and will only increase in value. Don't take it out the house to jam with yr mates.
This one went for USD 18500 and was a battered one, yours looks fairly mint!
http://www.eddievegas.com/store/details/1961-Orig-...
I think if I ever found myself looking at vintage Strats I'd rather a battered one than a mint one, there's something about a worn out looking old Strat which just looks cool.This one went for USD 18500 and was a battered one, yours looks fairly mint!
http://www.eddievegas.com/store/details/1961-Orig-...
Loyly said:
Indeed, it's not like CBS changed things overnight. I liked the fact they brought back ash bodies, they can sound really cool, weight issues aside. That said, their cost cutting programme did herald an appreciable downturn in quality. What's funnier now is that you can still pay well over the odds for a CBS Fender. Not as much as the mythical instruments from before that time, granted, but enough so one can clearly see their rarity is inflating their value more than their quality! I was also not a fan of the outside headstocks they put on later Strats, but that's an aesthetic complaint.
The only buyout/takeover that I can really remember going south instantly was the Tobias buyout, when Mike Tobias sold his business to Gibson. Tobias had carved a niche building really well made boutique basses which, for whatever reason, Gibson wanted to buy into. Overnight, production moved in-house to Gibson Nashville and players wept as the Gibson builders blundered from one mess to another. They didn't drop the premium pricing either but they did slowly kill off the brand, eventually just using the body shapes they'd acquired to make cheap, foreign made basses. Some buyers received really well made guitars but word quickly got round about how bad the Gibson built basses were in general. Some were documented in pictures that could be seen online and looked quite awful.
Mike Tobias set up MTD guitars and unarguably took his craft to another levek whilst Gibson learned that it takes more than a name to cut it in the boutique bass world. This was around the same time that they were running Trace Elliot into the ground.
First para , I assume you mean "outsized" headstocks /The only buyout/takeover that I can really remember going south instantly was the Tobias buyout, when Mike Tobias sold his business to Gibson. Tobias had carved a niche building really well made boutique basses which, for whatever reason, Gibson wanted to buy into. Overnight, production moved in-house to Gibson Nashville and players wept as the Gibson builders blundered from one mess to another. They didn't drop the premium pricing either but they did slowly kill off the brand, eventually just using the body shapes they'd acquired to make cheap, foreign made basses. Some buyers received really well made guitars but word quickly got round about how bad the Gibson built basses were in general. Some were documented in pictures that could be seen online and looked quite awful.
Mike Tobias set up MTD guitars and unarguably took his craft to another levek whilst Gibson learned that it takes more than a name to cut it in the boutique bass world. This was around the same time that they were running Trace Elliot into the ground.
I agree with you , think they look awful.
jbudgie said:
First para , I assume you mean "outsized" headstocks /
I agree with you , think they look awful.
Yes, I suspect it was all a marketing exercise, trying to get a bigger 'brand identifier' for TV recordings and live shows. I don't like them, they're all but gone from the ranges now save for a select few models. Maybe the only place I'll endure them is the Yngwie model.I agree with you , think they look awful.
JLC25 said:
Fraser '51 telecaster
Maybe it's just me but I really don't get the whole 'relic'd' thing. If a guitar is genuinely well used / old and has consummate wear then fine, but to make a new guitar look artificially old just doesn't seem right to me. Bit like wood effect laminate flooring - stuff purporting to be something that it isn't.Each to their own though and I understand why others will disagree
JLC25 said:
Anyone know where to get the best quality guitar bodies and necks in the UK are? Importing Warmoth can be a bit of a killer price wise and I would rather support a UK maker. It's either that or plump for a Fraser '51 telecaster with some mods!
People from many countries around the world are buying kits and parts from www.pitbullguitars.comNo association with the company other than a happy customer I am currently building my 3rd kit from them, this one is a quilted maple Tele which will be a Merle Haggard Tuff Dog tribute
JLC25 said:
Anyone know where to get the best quality guitar bodies and necks in the UK are? Importing Warmoth can be a bit of a killer price wise and I would rather support a UK maker. It's either that or plump for a Fraser '51 telecaster with some mods!
I've seen a couple of guitarbuild bodies and the ones I saw were nice quality - equal to a warmoth body I built up a few years back. Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff