Lets look at our guitars thread
Discussion
I was not buying guitars in the 70's early 80's so don't have experience of how bad the quality of Fender and Gibson was then however if the stories are true then they were ripe for the Japanese to come along and provide some quality.
I've had a few Japanese guitars and they have all been very good, that said I've also played a load that are crap.
I don't think (despite the odd horror story you might read on line) that Fender and Gibson have a particular issue with quality at the moment. As I posted elsewhere I spent a lot of time playing 2013/2014 les pauls a few weeks ago and they were all very good.
It does not look like the Chibson stuff is there yet, my old Jap Burny is completely original, and the components are great the only changes I would make are to the switching. Most of the reviews of the Chibson stuff say that they all need a bit of work.
Using that double neck as an example. I can get an epiphone one for about £700 from a uk dealer with a 4 year warranty. If I go Chibson I'll have to pay a couple of hundred for the guitar (plus whatever duty) and then will probably have to change the pickups, the wiring, the nut on the 12 neck which will cost me a couple of hundred to do with decent bits. And it still might be crap!
Saying that however I am tempted to take a punt on an Explorer
I've had a few Japanese guitars and they have all been very good, that said I've also played a load that are crap.
I don't think (despite the odd horror story you might read on line) that Fender and Gibson have a particular issue with quality at the moment. As I posted elsewhere I spent a lot of time playing 2013/2014 les pauls a few weeks ago and they were all very good.
It does not look like the Chibson stuff is there yet, my old Jap Burny is completely original, and the components are great the only changes I would make are to the switching. Most of the reviews of the Chibson stuff say that they all need a bit of work.
Using that double neck as an example. I can get an epiphone one for about £700 from a uk dealer with a 4 year warranty. If I go Chibson I'll have to pay a couple of hundred for the guitar (plus whatever duty) and then will probably have to change the pickups, the wiring, the nut on the 12 neck which will cost me a couple of hundred to do with decent bits. And it still might be crap!
Saying that however I am tempted to take a punt on an Explorer
The 70s-early 80s quality issues with USA made guitars is interesting. I've got a '79 hard tail USA Strat and a '08 USA Standard Strat. Fender are supposed to have made a jump forward in the build quality with the '08 and it is a great guitar. However some aspects don't seem as good as the '70s one (eg tone pots, volume control) and to me it doesn't sound as good (although the later one has a trem). The neck pocket/3 screw neck fit on the 70's one isn't as good as the '08 but that was easily fixed. I think the big issue in the 70s was the variability in quality rather than it being generally poor, now with more automation I think quality is much more consistent.
Gaspode said:
I have no problem with guitars manufactured in the Far East, I own a few myself and jolly good instruments they are too. But for me it's simply not on to make counterfeits of US made (or other countries, come to that) guitars. The reason people buy these guitars is that they want people to think they have a 'proper' Gibson or whatever but they don't want to pay the going rate.
They are turning a blind eye to the theft of the IP, and this strikes me as being dishonest and unnecessary when there are loads of very good copies out there that aren't claiming to be the real thing.
They are turning a blind eye to the theft of the IP, and this strikes me as being dishonest and unnecessary when there are loads of very good copies out there that aren't claiming to be the real thing.
davidd said:
Well that does look a nice one. You need to watch these Chinese sellers because sometimes their photo is of a genuine Gibson and the guitar you get is nothing like it, which is why it's important to ask for additional photos before placing the order. I think this one's ok though (it's the bridge that always gives it away). Interestingly, it's got chrome hardware; I think if I bought the one I'm looking at, I'd replace all the gold with chrome.Lotus 50 said:
I think the big issue in the 70s was the variability in quality rather than it being generally poor, now with more automation I think quality is much more consistent.
It's not the quality that's the problem these days; it's the prices.baryonyx said:
Ah, but Gibson are a money making enterprise. It's like saying to Fodera "why does the Anthony Jackson Presentation bass cost $20,000? It's one of the most basic basses you make in terms of simple design!". Because players are willing to pay that.
For 'willing to pay that' read 'gullible enough to believe the hype.'baryonyx said:
The Fender from Japan in the 80's and 90's were so good, a lot of their product was restricted to the Japanese market to protect the American brand!
That is absolutely true. I have a 1991 Fender Japan '62 Reissue Strat and it is awesome.AdeTuono said:
Tom_C76 said:
But the thing is, Japanese cars are well made, decently designed etc. I'd still buy a European car every time.
You might. Millions more buy Japanese though.For me it is partly the cache of owning a "proper" Gibson/Fender, and partly that the quality of the components is genuinely much better. My LP played perfectly out of the box, thanks to the Plex setup, I don't want to be dismantelling a new guitar, replacing all the components at a cost of a few hundred quid, refinishing frets, adjusting everything. In due course if I get the hang of the bass, the Squire will go on trade-in or fleabay and be replaced with a better one. Probably a USA made P-bass.
Tom_C76 said:
...I don't want to be dismantling a new guitar, replacing all the components at a cost of a few hundred quid, refinishing frets, adjusting everything ...
If you don't want to do that, fine, to each his own. I personally derive a lot of pleasure out of doing my own work on guitars rather than pay someone else. I view Chibsons as ideal training ground; something cheap to learn on, and when you have more experience, then you can let yourself loose on a $3000 Custom Shop special.I have a 1974 three bolt hardtail strat & it's a very fine guitar. Totally stable in tuning, lovely low action & very easy to play. I also have a Korean PRS & it plays like butter. However, I have found in my experience that what you do get with purposely divided brands is a deliberate compromise somewhere along the line.
This is obvious when you think about it. You want a Tele that looks & feels like a Tele but costs 50% of the price? We're going to cut something out of the deal & you take it or leave it. My PRS has pretty poor pickups. My gorgeous & rare MIM Palo Escrito Tele has really low quality hardware. The bridge & pots are demonstrably lower quality than any of my USA Fenders.
The argument that people are chasing some kind of badge snobbery with USA high end guitars is largely without merit to me. I'm sure people do, just as I'm sure there are distinctly average players out there with guitars way beyond their talent level but on a personal level, I've found that in general you get what you pay for & I'm happy to follow that principle within reason although £2k + for some Les Pauls does look spiteful to me.
This is obvious when you think about it. You want a Tele that looks & feels like a Tele but costs 50% of the price? We're going to cut something out of the deal & you take it or leave it. My PRS has pretty poor pickups. My gorgeous & rare MIM Palo Escrito Tele has really low quality hardware. The bridge & pots are demonstrably lower quality than any of my USA Fenders.
The argument that people are chasing some kind of badge snobbery with USA high end guitars is largely without merit to me. I'm sure people do, just as I'm sure there are distinctly average players out there with guitars way beyond their talent level but on a personal level, I've found that in general you get what you pay for & I'm happy to follow that principle within reason although £2k + for some Les Pauls does look spiteful to me.
Justin Cyder said:
... £2k + for some Les Pauls does look spiteful to me.
My point precisely. I can understand the £2k, after all it is made in the USA with their attendant material and labour costs plus import duty and VAT etc, but why does the price suddenly shoot up to £3k just because the thing has a slightly different maple top on it? Somebody somewhere is having a laugh surely?Evangelion said:
My point precisely. I can understand the £2k, after all it is made in the USA with their attendant material and labour costs plus import duty and VAT etc, but why does the price suddenly shoot up to £3k just because the thing has a slightly different maple top on it? Somebody somewhere is having a laugh surely?
Surely a manufacturer has the right to charge whatever they like for their product, leaving the customer to decide whether or not that price is worth paying? In the case of maple tops, the price difference represents the rarity and attractiveness of the grain pattern, I would think. Someone who doesn't value the additional visual appeal wouldn't consider paying the price. OTOH someone who does, would. Chacun a son gout and all that...
It is that isn't it. Guitars are not exactly what you'd call a rational purchase for a lot of us & the canny manufacturers know this. They price to catch whatever segment they're after & see what comes back. However, if you're making a base model of say a Les Paul for example, there is a fixed cost in that. By adding £100 of extra bits & bobs & jacking the price £1000. Well, that's not bad business is it?
OTOH, I fancied getting into Fender's IPO for sentimental reasons & before they pulled it, a few facts & figures emerged, most interestingly that the return on capital overall was about 2-3% There isn't it seems a good living in mass producing guitars.
OTOH, I fancied getting into Fender's IPO for sentimental reasons & before they pulled it, a few facts & figures emerged, most interestingly that the return on capital overall was about 2-3% There isn't it seems a good living in mass producing guitars.
Edited by Justin Cyder on Monday 17th February 13:11
Justin Cyder said:
It is that isn't it. Guitars are not exactly what you'd call a rational purchase for a lot of us & the canny manufacturers know this. They price to catch whatever segment they're after & see what comes back. However, if you're making a base model of say a Les Paul for example, there is a fixed cost in that. By adding £100 of extra bits & bobs & jacking the price £1000. Well, that's not bad business is it?
OTOH, I fancied getting into Fender's IPO for sentimental reasons & before they pulled it, a few facts & figures emerged, most interestingly that the return on capital overall was about 2-3% There isn't it seems a good living in mass producing guitars.
Presumably why there's such an uplift in pricing for fancier models - their profit margin on custom and signature models is prob. much higher (artist commission notwithstanding) than on the standard range, but across their whole product range the profit margin is still quite slight.OTOH, I fancied getting into Fender's IPO for sentimental reasons & before they pulled it, a few facts & figures emerged, most interestingly that the return on capital overall was about 2-3% There isn't it seems a good living in mass producing guitars.
I think another problem you have is the maturity of the market. Fender & Gibson have tried new models throughout their existence but it's only ever a few that stick. Everyone it seems want a 62 reissue strat or a '59 Les Paul & so the room for manoeuvre is very limited, hence all kinds of special editions every year with this pickup or that finish.
The innovation really comes from the lower volume manufacturers & that is in the grand scheme of things, fairly niche appeal. The big market will always be three chords & the truth.
The innovation really comes from the lower volume manufacturers & that is in the grand scheme of things, fairly niche appeal. The big market will always be three chords & the truth.
Gaspode said:
Back to looking at our guitars. Last weekend I visited World Guitars, and came away with this, a Taylor 354ce 12-string. It sounds absolutely lovely, Mrs Gaspode reckons it's the best sounding of all my guitars which was lucky as I didn't have to reveal the cost
How was it at World Guitars?I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
GoBig said:
How was it at World Guitars?
I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
It's a complete wonderland of highly desirable guitars and kit. Jeff, Smithy and Julian are a great bunch, extremely knowledgeable, and they've got a couple of audition rooms where you can play whatever you fancy. They have a very large selection of PRS and Les Pauls, a fair few Fender Custom Shop jobs, and a number of others. On the Acoustic side they only do Taylors at the moment. I've bought 3 guitars and an amp from them in the last few years, and I'll probably be back for more. Living only a few miles away is a bit of a double-edged sword I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
Gaspode said:
GoBig said:
How was it at World Guitars?
I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
It's a complete wonderland of highly desirable guitars and kit. Jeff, Smithy and Julian are a great bunch, extremely knowledgeable, and they've got a couple of audition rooms where you can play whatever you fancy. They have a very large selection of PRS and Les Pauls, a fair few Fender Custom Shop jobs, and a number of others. On the Acoustic side they only do Taylors at the moment. I've bought 3 guitars and an amp from them in the last few years, and I'll probably be back for more. Living only a few miles away is a bit of a double-edged sword I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
Had only heard good things about them.
GoBig said:
Gaspode said:
GoBig said:
How was it at World Guitars?
I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
It's a complete wonderland of highly desirable guitars and kit. Jeff, Smithy and Julian are a great bunch, extremely knowledgeable, and they've got a couple of audition rooms where you can play whatever you fancy. They have a very large selection of PRS and Les Pauls, a fair few Fender Custom Shop jobs, and a number of others. On the Acoustic side they only do Taylors at the moment. I've bought 3 guitars and an amp from them in the last few years, and I'll probably be back for more. Living only a few miles away is a bit of a double-edged sword I'm planning on visiting in the next couple of weeks.
Had only heard good things about them.
Evangelion said:
Justin Cyder said:
... £2k + for some Les Pauls does look spiteful to me.
My point precisely. I can understand the £2k, after all it is made in the USA with their attendant material and labour costs plus import duty and VAT etc, but why does the price suddenly shoot up to £3k just because the thing has a slightly different maple top on it? Somebody somewhere is having a laugh surely?Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff