Lets look at our guitars thread
Discussion
Evangelion said:
Think some people need reminding that pickups are magnetic devices and therefore can only hear the strings, not the wood or the paint.
Admittedly the pickup has a massive bearing on the tone, as do your fingers but if you're saying it doesn't make a difference then why bother with wood at all? And if I stick some Les Paul pickups in my strat will it sound like a LP? Why do people choose different woods? and do more expensive guitars have different woods? (not talking about guitars with figured tops)... Surely all that leads to suggest the wood does make a difference? And therefore if you have a thinner finish that allows the wood to vibrate more then it's only going to be a positive. 
dojo said:
Admittedly the pickup has a massive bearing on the tone, as do your fingers but if you're saying it doesn't make a difference then why bother with wood at all? And if I stick some Les Paul pickups in my strat will it sound like a LP? Why do people choose different woods? and do more expensive guitars have different woods? (not talking about guitars with figured tops)... Surely all that leads to suggest the wood does make a difference? And therefore if you have a thinner finish that allows the wood to vibrate more then it's only going to be a positive.
Sorry, wood makes no difference. It's been proved many times.While it is quite true that if you put LP pickups on a Strat it won't sound like an LP, just a slightly different Strat, remember we are talking about a guitar with completely different construction; i.e. a bolt-on neck instead of glued in, tremelo unit instead of hardtail, and a longer scale length. Those will make a difference, much more difference than the wood, because the wood makes no difference. It can vibrate as much as it likes, but the pickup won't hear it - because pickups are magnetic.
Evangelion said:
Sorry, wood makes no difference. It's been proved many times.
While it is quite true that if you put LP pickups on a Strat it won't sound like an LP, just a slightly different Strat, remember we are talking about a guitar with completely different construction; i.e. a bolt-on neck instead of glued in, tremelo unit instead of hardtail, and a longer scale length. Those will make a difference, much more difference than the wood, because the wood makes no difference. It can vibrate as much as it likes, but the pickup won't hear it - because pickups are magnetic.
Id be interested to read some of the links that have proved it. Because I've had the same pickups in different guitars and they've sounded different. Either way that was one reason I surmised that people might prefer a relic. Many people if not most prefer a Nitro finish. While it is quite true that if you put LP pickups on a Strat it won't sound like an LP, just a slightly different Strat, remember we are talking about a guitar with completely different construction; i.e. a bolt-on neck instead of glued in, tremelo unit instead of hardtail, and a longer scale length. Those will make a difference, much more difference than the wood, because the wood makes no difference. It can vibrate as much as it likes, but the pickup won't hear it - because pickups are magnetic.
At the end of the day it's all down to the player but if you feel confident playing your instrument and if that's a relic or a squire with a fender decal then chances are you'll play better.
Edited by dojo on Saturday 1st November 15:08
dojo said:
Evangelion said:
Think some people need reminding that pickups are magnetic devices and therefore can only hear the strings, not the wood or the paint.
Admittedly the pickup has a massive bearing on the tone, as do your fingers but if you're saying it doesn't make a difference then why bother with wood at all? And if I stick some Les Paul pickups in my strat will it sound like a LP? Why do people choose different woods? and do more expensive guitars have different woods? (not talking about guitars with figured tops)... Surely all that leads to suggest the wood does make a difference? And therefore if you have a thinner finish that allows the wood to vibrate more then it's only going to be a positive. As for why use wood at all? It's the ideal material inasmuch as it's easily machined, easily painted and the sizes and shapes possible can be achieved within a suitable weight limits. Most other materials are far too heavy, people have experimented with perspex etc and it's far too heavy for comfort, unless you make the body so small that it then becomes difficult to hold still while you are playing.
Figured tops- many people find these attractive and therefore will pay more for them, similar to leather upholstery in a car.
To bear out Evangelion's point about the wood having no effect on the guitar's tone, there's a very good video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmOQuNC1Uw&in...
which goes into the maths and physics of it all here.
This is tone we are talking about, BTW, not output envelope, which will be affected by different choices of wood if those lead to big changes in weight. As I am sure you know, if everything else stays the same the heavier guitar will sustain longer as the string's energy, which it got from the picking action, being less easily able to vibrate the mass of the guitar body, keeps the string vibrating longer.
dojo said:
At the end of the day it's all down to the player but if you feel confident playing your instrument and if that's a relic or a squire with a fender decal then chances are you'll play better.
i think this is a sound point. There may be no objective reason, but if you like the guitar you are playing, and think that it sounds good, then you are more likely to play better and to enjoy doing so, whatever the origin of your belief.Edited by dojo on Saturday 1st November 15:08
singlecoil said:
dojo said:
you have the money and like the look then why not??
Why not indeed, I am totally in favour of people spending their money on whatever they fancy, and I am glad they have the opportunity to do so. I'm just finding it a bit of a struggle to see the attraction of it, but your post has helped to build the picture.Evangelion said:
Sorry, wood makes no difference. It's been proved many times.
While it is quite true that if you put LP pickups on a Strat it won't sound like an LP, just a slightly different Strat, remember we are talking about a guitar with completely different construction; i.e. a bolt-on neck instead of glued in, tremelo unit instead of hardtail, and a longer scale length. Those will make a difference, much more difference than the wood, because the wood makes no difference. It can vibrate as much as it likes, but the pickup won't hear it - because pickups are magnetic.
I'd be interested to see the definitive proof of this - the video referenced has an interesting discussion in the comments and is by no means a definitive proof. There are also other videos on you tube that attempt to prove the opposite (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLxE8iDWD_w).While it is quite true that if you put LP pickups on a Strat it won't sound like an LP, just a slightly different Strat, remember we are talking about a guitar with completely different construction; i.e. a bolt-on neck instead of glued in, tremelo unit instead of hardtail, and a longer scale length. Those will make a difference, much more difference than the wood, because the wood makes no difference. It can vibrate as much as it likes, but the pickup won't hear it - because pickups are magnetic.
In the video presentation referenced above by Singlecoil, there's a lot of basic physics discussed about string frequency and harmonics but thats about it (there's also a few errors as well 25.5ins doesn't equal 1.2954m for example). The presenter in the video mentions the interaction of a wave form as it travels from one medium to another (i.e. a wave travelling along a rope attached to a wall) and does talk a bit about how the characteristics of the second medium have a bearing on how much of the wave is absorbed or reflected. However he then misses the point that the harmonics of a guitar string are complex and the different frequencies of the note will be absorbed/reflected differentially depending on the medium that the strings are attached to. Wood has different overall densities and it's structure isn't uniform so it will absorb different components of the complex harmonic vibrations in the string at different rates this means that different woods will impart different tonal characteristics to a guitar. This effect probably will be less than the effect that using a different pickup, mode of construction (i.e. bolt on/glued in neck) etc but it will still be there.
Edited by Lotus 50 on Sunday 2nd November 13:49
I really don't buy this 'wood makes no difference' statement, unless you are also asserting that every guitar manufacturer is peddling snake-oil. Why would they, almost without exception, spend so much time and effort sourcing appropriate 'tonewoods'?
Google it; 3/4 million results and numerous companys and sites extolling the virtues and properties of different types of wood. Are they all blowing smoke up our arses and wasting their time? If it was just about appearance, they'd surely make guitars out of plywood & veneer...
Google it; 3/4 million results and numerous companys and sites extolling the virtues and properties of different types of wood. Are they all blowing smoke up our arses and wasting their time? If it was just about appearance, they'd surely make guitars out of plywood & veneer...
Having recently bought a MIM '50s Classic' Telecaster I plan to swap the pick ups over from my Chinese made 'Affinity' Telecaster which has a thinner body (and a neck that I'm not as comfortable with). It'll be interesting to see if I hear much difference in tone between the two guitars using the same electrics in both. I'll see if I can make a recording of the Affinity before I remove the electrics, then again with them fitted onto the new Tele.
Slight difference in that the Affinity has a top loading bridge and the new Tele has the strings loading through the body. They certainly sound different when played acoustically, but it was mostly the feel of the newer one that prompted the change.
Slight difference in that the Affinity has a top loading bridge and the new Tele has the strings loading through the body. They certainly sound different when played acoustically, but it was mostly the feel of the newer one that prompted the change.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Sunday 2nd November 15:16
Lotus 50 said:
I'd be interested to see the definitive proof of this - the video referenced has an interesting discussion in the comments and is by no means a definitive proof. There are also other videos on you tube that attempt to prove the opposite (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLxE8iDWD_w).
In the video presentation referenced above by Singlecoil, there's a lot of basic physics discussed about string frequency and harmonics but thats about it (there's also a few errors as well 25.5ins doesn't equal 1.2954m for example). The presenter in the video mentions the interaction of a wave form as it travels from one medium to another (i.e. a wave travelling along a rope attached to a wall) and does talk a bit about how the characteristics of the second medium have a bearing on how much of the wave is absorbed or reflected. However he then misses the point that the harmonics of a guitar string are complex and the different frequencies of the note will be absorbed/reflected differentially depending on the medium that the strings are attached to. Wood has different overall densities and it's structure isn't uniform so it will absorb different components of the complex harmonic vibrations in the string at different rates this means that different woods will impart different tonal characteristics to a guitar. This effect probably will be less than the effect that using a different pickup, mode of construction (i.e. bolt on/glued in neck) etc but it will still be there.
You make some good points.In the video presentation referenced above by Singlecoil, there's a lot of basic physics discussed about string frequency and harmonics but thats about it (there's also a few errors as well 25.5ins doesn't equal 1.2954m for example). The presenter in the video mentions the interaction of a wave form as it travels from one medium to another (i.e. a wave travelling along a rope attached to a wall) and does talk a bit about how the characteristics of the second medium have a bearing on how much of the wave is absorbed or reflected. However he then misses the point that the harmonics of a guitar string are complex and the different frequencies of the note will be absorbed/reflected differentially depending on the medium that the strings are attached to. Wood has different overall densities and it's structure isn't uniform so it will absorb different components of the complex harmonic vibrations in the string at different rates this means that different woods will impart different tonal characteristics to a guitar. This effect probably will be less than the effect that using a different pickup, mode of construction (i.e. bolt on/glued in neck) etc but it will still be there.
Edited by Lotus 50 on Sunday 2nd November 13:49
I think we can all agree that the factors that can affect the sound of any guitar are many and complex.
You point about the harmonics is completely correct, as I am sure you know.
I'm sure we can agree that some factors will be more important than others. My position is that a different wood (with absolutely no other differences whatsoever), unless the weight is substantially different, will make so little difference that it can safely be ignored as far as any audible difference in tone is concerned.
Where wood makes a difference is in how the player feels about the guitar, and that IS going to have an effect. Musicians are artists and like all artists what they do is affected by their emotional relationship with their instrument and other equipment.
AdeTuono]... Why would [guitar manufacturers said:
, almost without exception, spend so much time and effort sourcing appropriate 'tonewoods'? ...
Because they want to sell them to us! And what further clouds the issue, is that when you buy an expensive guitar, you're not just getting better woods, but lots of other better things as well; not the least of which, of course, is the extra attention to detail that goes into a $5000 dollar custom shop special as opposed to a $500 dollar production line standard.Le TVR said:
Another 335. A '79 that I bought back in 1982. The one guitar that I don't think I will ever part with. Teles, strats etc have come and gone but this is a keeper. Not cherry but wine red.
Off topic, sorry.Just looked at your profile Le TVR. I thought that floor looked French! I'm to the east of you, near Ales, also a TVR owner, and a guitar player of some mediocrity!
Liking that wine red! Bit classier than cherry which can sometimes look a little garish. I also prefer the block markers they used between 1962 and 81, to the dots. Bit cheap looking for a guitar as good as this one.
Few years ago I had a wine red Les Paul (claimed to be a 1975 one but that couldn't have been right because Gibson only shipped one Standard that year). Gibson themselves suspected it was a 1969 Gold Top that had been refinished and had humbuckers added. Really should have kept it and had it restored but I didn't. Still, I will admit the wine red look lovely, a nice change from all those sunbursts with excessively flamed tops (not really historically correct as only a small percentage of the 1958-60 originals were actually flamed).
Few years ago I had a wine red Les Paul (claimed to be a 1975 one but that couldn't have been right because Gibson only shipped one Standard that year). Gibson themselves suspected it was a 1969 Gold Top that had been refinished and had humbuckers added. Really should have kept it and had it restored but I didn't. Still, I will admit the wine red look lovely, a nice change from all those sunbursts with excessively flamed tops (not really historically correct as only a small percentage of the 1958-60 originals were actually flamed).
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