Lets look at our guitars thread
Discussion
We had a discussion on the Shadows Music Forum recently about so-called 'tonewoods' and some of it got quite heated. It's amazing how people believe what ever rubbish the guitar manufacturers tell them. They're the last people you want to believe, they're trying to get money out of you, sometimes for overpriced tat that frankly isn't worth it!
My take on the subject is this: I'm prepared to believe that the body of an electric guitar has an influence on the sound produced. But that influence is so small that changing the type of wood makes no audible difference. It's certainly less than differences due to construction, pickups, electronics, hardware and, the most important in my view, setup.
And this has been proved many times. But will these people listen? Will they buggery.
(And don't even get me started on pickups.)
My take on the subject is this: I'm prepared to believe that the body of an electric guitar has an influence on the sound produced. But that influence is so small that changing the type of wood makes no audible difference. It's certainly less than differences due to construction, pickups, electronics, hardware and, the most important in my view, setup.
And this has been proved many times. But will these people listen? Will they buggery.
(And don't even get me started on pickups.)
I agree with Evangelion re the effect that different woods have (basically, none). However, guitarists are artists rather than scientists, and if they feel that a particular sort of wood gives them the sound they want from a particular guitar, then it may well be that there is more going on that pure physics. Emotion plays a part too.
Mastodon2 said:
I can hear a definite difference in tone woods - A/Bing them on clean settings through good clean amps helps.
It's my position that unless you can actually swap just the body, and have everything else the same, you can't do a/b comparisons between different woods. Different guitars will always sound different, but it's not possible to factor out all the other things that can change the sound bar the wood.singlecoil said:
It's my position that unless you can actually swap just the body, and have everything else the same, you can't do a/b comparisons between different woods. Different guitars will always sound different, but it's not possible to factor out all the other things that can change the sound bar the wood.
Naturally, you need to be considerate of the setup, if you've got two different guitars, then you've got two different guitars. If you have two otherwise identical guitars with the body wood being the difference, you can probably trust your ears to hear the difference the wood is making. Or, as mentioned above, play them unplugged, some guitars really sing, others sound very dull and muted, which is a reliable tone test, unless a poor-sounding unplugged guitar has a poor setup.I don't think anybody would argue the effect of 'tonewoods' with regards to acoustic guitars, but for electrics, I would suggest the density of a particular wood species (and therefore different tonewoods) can and does have a discernible effect on the tone. Oh of course, one might argue that it's hard to have a like-for-like replacement. It's true, however that again comes back to the fact that different slabs of wood from the same species might differ in how dense they are and therefore affect tone. Now, when I'm talking tone, I'm not talking about what you hear from an audience's perspective--the differences are not often heard, but perceived by the player themselves. The way a guitar feels to a player may be totally different, when you've given them guitars with the same pickups/hardware with different woods. I don't know if somebody has done an experiment with the weight adjusted for the a/b comparison though.
ETA: Those who doubt the effect of woods on electric guitar tone, strum your electric and then touch the body or the tip of the headstock...almost always you feel the vibrations of the string. From a physics perspective, if something can affect the vibrating part of the string, it will affect its amplitude and hence tone...amplitude at nut = zero but what happens here is that this is not a perfect system, the vibrations transmitted to the body/neck are feeding back in to the bridge/nut and eventually the string..and denser the wood the less feedback...leading to increased sustain. I think.
ETA: Those who doubt the effect of woods on electric guitar tone, strum your electric and then touch the body or the tip of the headstock...almost always you feel the vibrations of the string. From a physics perspective, if something can affect the vibrating part of the string, it will affect its amplitude and hence tone...amplitude at nut = zero but what happens here is that this is not a perfect system, the vibrations transmitted to the body/neck are feeding back in to the bridge/nut and eventually the string..and denser the wood the less feedback...leading to increased sustain. I think.
Edited by Dr Z on Wednesday 28th January 19:14
Edited by Dr Z on Wednesday 28th January 19:15
Slight side track but I fancy getting an 8 or even a 9 string. Anybody got one? I think it's very intruiging idea although might hold out for when they make a 10 string 
Ibanez and Schecter seem to be good at these. The Schecter Hellraiser looks very interesting.
There will be those who think they're just silly of course and perhaps they are...
Ibanez and Schecter seem to be good at these. The Schecter Hellraiser looks very interesting.
There will be those who think they're just silly of course and perhaps they are...
Driller said:
Slight side track but I fancy getting an 8 or even a 9 string. Anybody got one? I think it's very intruiging idea although might hold out for when they make a 10 string hehe
Ibanez and Schecter seem to be good at these. The Schecter Hellraiser looks very interesting.
There will be those who think they're just silly of course and perhaps they are...
I've spent the majority of my guitar playing life using a 7 string as my main guitar, and I had the first production Ibanez 8 string in the UK. If you're going to get one, get an Ibanez. Schecter have enormous necks, which is fine if you have hands like Paul Gilbert, but the Ibanez necks are much slimmer and less tiring on the hand and arm muscles. That said, even an Ibanez 8 string neck is wide, but not that deep, but still noticeably thicker than a 6 or 7 string. Jackson do some good cheapish 7s and 8s too, with reasonable necks.Ibanez and Schecter seem to be good at these. The Schecter Hellraiser looks very interesting.
There will be those who think they're just silly of course and perhaps they are...
Have a look at the scale lengths too, as extended range guitars (ERGs) come in a range these days, generally from 25.5" to 27". Schecter are pretty stiff playing guitars despite their scale length, my Ibanez RG2228 was quite nice but it's still a jump in terms of tension and stiffness in the strings over a traditional 25.5" guitar. Like we were talking about earlier, longer scale means you can use thinner strings for a given tuning, the 25.5" 8 strings really don't convince me at all, the F# is just too flubby and fat sounding. With that said, I found the 27" scale of my RG2228 to be insufficient for a tight and clear F#. It was ok, but it wasn't amazing and was all the more jarring because the other strings sounded very tight and punchy. On the flipside, I found the scale length too much for the high strings, which were stiffer than I'd like and lacked the smoothness you get on higher notes on a 25.5". The longer scale length means the frets are bigger too, so you'll find there are some big stretches you can do on a 25.5" that you just can't do on a longer scale 8 or 9 string. You won't find this problem on a 25.5" 8 string, but then your F# will sound so s
t you'll avoid using that string.I also find that on single/fixed scale length 8 strings is that the F# doesn't blend well with the other strings - a lot of bands have figured this out too, hence not using it in complex chords, or even in power chords and instead using the F# for single note riffing, which imo isn't a nice sound - the string almost invariably sounds too flubby.
For serious clarity and attack at F# and lower, imo you need a 28"+ scale, like on Meshuggah's Ibanez M8M and M80M models, which have a 29.4" scale, and a single Lundgren M8 in the bridge position. The low notes are exceptionally clear - the middle and higher strings sound exceptionally lifeless and sterile, and the scale length is so long, and the tension of the strings means you can forget playing it like a conventional guitar.
Imo, the way to get an 8 string working properly is to have a multi-scale with a big fan angle, probably set to 29" on the F# up to 25.5" on the high E, that way you get the tightness and attack on the F#, and the singing tone and easy bending on the higher notes, and they'll blend nicely to play proper chords. As it is, single-scale length 8s are a compromise and imo, annoying to play because of it. A properly specced mutli-scale is the solution, but you'd need to be looking at a custom job. And then you'll be looking at your signal chain, as EQing those big lows can be tough to balance with smooth mids and highs, so EQ pedals and careful gear choice is a must.
If you just want an 8/9 string to bang out single note riffs, get the longest scale length you can find and accept it won't be perfect unless you get an Ibanez M80M, if you want a balanced instrument for big, lush chords and blending all of the strings together as you would on a 7 string, then I probably wouldn't bother.
I'm all for ERGs, the benefits are excellent, but imo even the best production 8s are too compromised. Neither fish nor fowl, sadly and that ultimately means they're not for me. YMMV, and your motives for wanting one must be considered - just because they don't work for me doesn't mean they wouldn't work for you.
BorkFactor said:
Evangelion said:
(And don't even get me started on pickups.)
Have I read this wrong, or are you suggesting changing pickups doesn't make much of a difference..?Apologies if so.
Take the Strat as an example. Everyone knows how you make a classic pre-CBS Strat pickup. You have a bobbin made of Forbon (a sort of vulcanised fibre), wind it with approximately 8000 turns of 42AWG heavy Formvar insulated wire, and drop in a set of AlNiCo V magnets. Now if Manufacturer A does this, and Manufacturer B does more or less the same (possibly with components from the same supplier!) why does A charge £50 for a set of 3, and B £100 per pickup? Furthermore, people can be persuaded to rip out A's and replace them with B's, believing they are better just because they cost more .
Don1 said:
As I mostly just strum on my electrics without amplification.... The Vai Universe has a much brighter, cleaner sound than any of the others. Just my 2p.
I have 2 Strats, both USA made 1997 models. One is a Roadhouse, originally with Texas Specials, now with DMGs, the other a Big Apple, originally with two Seymour Duncan humbuckers, now with the Texas Specials. Other than that they are identical, both have maple necks with rosewood fretboards, all the hardware is the same, and they are both strung with .010 Super Bullets. They are clearly made of different woods as the weights are very different, although I haven't a clue which wood or how to tell. Needless to say, the pups make the differences obvious when played through an amp, but when you play them unplugged, you can tell the difference between them, the heavier guitar (the Big Apple) has definitely got a thicker sound to it.
My take on the tone woods debate (that seems to crop up quite often in these "halls"!) is roughly as follows:
- In my view the wood itself can't impart energy/vibrations into the string (unless you hit the guitar body rather than the string) but it can absorb them and will do so at different frequencies depending on the type of wood and it's quality. In an electric guitar this means that it's less about the resonance of specific woods it's more about how the wood absorbs different parts of the harmonic spectrum. You have to remember here that after the initial "pluck" the vibration of a string becomes increasingly complex involving lots of different frequencies, some will be reflected from the guitar back into the string, resulting in sustain, better than others. Different woods have different densities and the density of the wood itself will not necessarily be uniform. Good tone woods will, I suspect, have a more uniform densities hence their tendency to ring more when tapped. This means that they will probably have very specific properties in the frequency of the harmonics they absorb or reflect and mean that they have more specific effects on the tone of the guitar (e.g. enabling mid frequencies to sustain longer by reflecting those frequencies better). A guitar made of cheap plywood is likely to sound poor/have no sustain because it will absorb most of the vibrations from the string. This also applies to the material that the nut, bridge etc are made of. Trem systems also affect tone.
- The construction of the guitar also makes a difference for the above reasons - it affects how the body of the guitar absorbs parts of the harmonic frequencies that are coming from the strings.
- Different pickups obviously do affect the tone of the guitar, probably more so than the wood, for several reasons. For example, the twin coils in humbucking pickups don't just cancel hum but will also cancel out some sound frequencies. Also the strength of the pickup magnet and the distance it is placed from the string also affects tone due to the pull of the magnet on the string (this is really noticable on Strats if you have single coil pickups on them and you put them too close to the string the magnetic pull makes the guitar sound like the intonation is out - "Stratitis". Similarly the electrickery in the guitar will also come into play.
Overall it's a combination of the above that produces the tone. The level of impact of each component will depend on the others (e.g. if a guitar is fundamentally badly put together with a loose neck joint or the neck is too thin to have the required strength it will sound bad no matter what pickups/wood being used). If the guitar is well made then woods of different density will make it sound different assuming the same pickups are used. You'll also get different sounds using the same wood and different pickups. Different people will also notice these more than others.
- In my view the wood itself can't impart energy/vibrations into the string (unless you hit the guitar body rather than the string) but it can absorb them and will do so at different frequencies depending on the type of wood and it's quality. In an electric guitar this means that it's less about the resonance of specific woods it's more about how the wood absorbs different parts of the harmonic spectrum. You have to remember here that after the initial "pluck" the vibration of a string becomes increasingly complex involving lots of different frequencies, some will be reflected from the guitar back into the string, resulting in sustain, better than others. Different woods have different densities and the density of the wood itself will not necessarily be uniform. Good tone woods will, I suspect, have a more uniform densities hence their tendency to ring more when tapped. This means that they will probably have very specific properties in the frequency of the harmonics they absorb or reflect and mean that they have more specific effects on the tone of the guitar (e.g. enabling mid frequencies to sustain longer by reflecting those frequencies better). A guitar made of cheap plywood is likely to sound poor/have no sustain because it will absorb most of the vibrations from the string. This also applies to the material that the nut, bridge etc are made of. Trem systems also affect tone.
- The construction of the guitar also makes a difference for the above reasons - it affects how the body of the guitar absorbs parts of the harmonic frequencies that are coming from the strings.
- Different pickups obviously do affect the tone of the guitar, probably more so than the wood, for several reasons. For example, the twin coils in humbucking pickups don't just cancel hum but will also cancel out some sound frequencies. Also the strength of the pickup magnet and the distance it is placed from the string also affects tone due to the pull of the magnet on the string (this is really noticable on Strats if you have single coil pickups on them and you put them too close to the string the magnetic pull makes the guitar sound like the intonation is out - "Stratitis". Similarly the electrickery in the guitar will also come into play.
Overall it's a combination of the above that produces the tone. The level of impact of each component will depend on the others (e.g. if a guitar is fundamentally badly put together with a loose neck joint or the neck is too thin to have the required strength it will sound bad no matter what pickups/wood being used). If the guitar is well made then woods of different density will make it sound different assuming the same pickups are used. You'll also get different sounds using the same wood and different pickups. Different people will also notice these more than others.
Edited by Lotus 50 on Thursday 29th January 09:19
Lotus 50 said:
Gave his take on the tone woods debate
Spot on in my view. For an electric, the wood of the body absorbs energy from the string. The energy thus lost is not available to vibrate the string over the pick-up. In my view (backed up by no evidence whatsoever) the energy imparted to the neck is probably the most important factor on the vibration of the string. The body will feed back very little of the energy it absorbs, but the neck which is free to move (though it will be damped by the player's hand) will itself be vibrating slightly relative to the string and thus altering the harmonic response of the string while it continues to ring. The extent to which this is detectable I cannot even guess at. In my view amplification is at least as significant as guitar/pickup construction in tone and sound discussions.jensenhealey2 said:
... the neck which is free to move (though it will be damped by the player's hand) ...
This probably goes some way to explaining why similar guitars, or even the same guitar, can sound different when being played by different people.(There's a video somewhere on YouTube where a guy holds an electric guitar away from him and plays it unplugged, then holds it in the normal playing position and plays it again. Sounds different. Possibly if I (6ft 3 and skinny) tried that, it might sound different from someone else (say a 5ft 3 lardass) doing it.)
Mastodon2 said:
If anyone wants to see the effect of sympathetic vibration on tone in shocking detail, find an acrylic guitar like one of the old BC Rich acrylic series for a shockingly dull and lifeless tone.
I suspect, with appropriate measurement, one could show how neck/body wood does impact tone. From what I understand the sound we hear isn't a simple sine wave but a very very complex set of harmonics and interactions in the waves travelling up and down the string. This is what the pickups turn into voltage.If a construction, nut, bridge and wood produce different wave characteristics then they'll impact the tone.
Should be pretty simple to test in a lab.
I'd expect the electronics, pickups and construction (i.e. solid neck joint/through neck) to make more difference.
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