Best 4x4 in hot and sandy conditions

[PugwasHDJ80]

camel_landy said:

TLandCruiser said:

Siscar said:

Oh well, different people, different experiences. I wouldn't want to be anywhere hot in a 110 but having recently spent several days in African sand in a disco 4 that included a few instances of helping land cruisers out of trouble I'd definitely not agree, but hey, no point in arguing about it.

Everyone gets stuck at some point, land cruisers, land rovers and jeeps etc etc there is no shame in getting stuck which everyone will do at some point when driving off road... The question was on reliability. If I had to cross the Dessert in a land rover, it would be a defender simply down to it having no electronic 4x4 systems with air suspension etc, all mechanical with less to go wrong.

Just coz they're from LRE, rally pro, blah, blah... It doesn't instantly mean they know how to drive on sand.

The Disco does very well but it is a heavy car, something like the Freelander is a cracker in sandy conditions as it is 1t lighter...

M

Just to be clear- for us, and on a number of occasions with different drivers, the Disco performed significantly below expectation in sand. Having offroaded Discos in most other conditions around the world (and being very impressed with its performance), we were all surprised at how badly it performed.

I agree that just because someone is a professional rally driver, he may not be a very good driver, but seeing as we have all driven in the Sahara on a lot of occasions, I would think we are all moderately skilled (more so than the usual "off-roader), and certainly skilled enough to identify when it is the vehicle that is disappointing rather than the driver.

FWIW I'm Justin the process of buying a D3, so its not like I don't appreciate them- I just wouldn't take one into a hot country and work it hard

[100SRV]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

Just to be clear- for us, and on a number of occasions with different drivers, the Disco performed significantly below expectation in sand. Having offroaded Discos in most other conditions around the world (and being very impressed with its performance), we were all surprised at how badly it performed.

I agree that just because someone is a professional rally driver, he may not be a very good driver, but seeing as we have all driven in the Sahara on a lot of occasions, I would think we are all moderately skilled (more so than the usual "off-roader), and certainly skilled enough to identify when it is the vehicle that is disappointing rather than the driver.

FWIW I'm Justin the process of buying a D3, so its not like I don't appreciate them- I just wouldn't take one into a hot country and work it hard

What caught the D3 out in sand? Drag from the low-slung body getting it stuck in fesh-fesh or lack of power / appropriate shift points causing it to slow and bog?

Have you ever read about the exploits of Ralph Bagnold and the LRDG with 2WD trucks in that part of the world?

[Siscar]

There are lots of other factors such as age of car, simply because the new ones are a lot more capable than the older ones, what tyres it has on and not experience driving on sand but experience of driving the vehicle you are in on sand.

I've spend two weeks in Africa in a Disco 4 on normal road tyres driving in a lot of sand and was impressed what it could do and we did, along the way, help out people in Landcruisers and Jeeps. But of course we were with people from Land Rover who, presumably, really knew what they were doing whereas the people in the other vehicles may have been complete numpties for all I know.

You'd only really know how they compare if you got someone who really knew one to pit them selves against someone who really knew the other, but I doubt that ever happens.

[PugwasHDJ80]

100SRV said:

What caught the D3 out in sand? Drag from the low-slung body getting it stuck in fesh-fesh or lack of power / appropriate shift points causing it to slow and bog?

Have you ever read about the exploits of Ralph Bagnold and the LRDG with 2WD trucks in that part of the world?

One the first trip we actually thought it was the tyres, but on the second trip it was shod in the same rubber as the other vehicles (notably not sand tyres, but BFG A/Ts), and that showed no improvement.

We considered weight, but my 80 series was at least as heavy.

We ended up putting it down to the setup of the gearbox and the engine- what seemed to happen is that as you got into soft sand you wanted to add torque without adding power (ie stay in a high gear), but the engine dropped off boost (or seemed to) as the speed bled off, which mean you had to kickdown, which meant you lost power at the critical moment, this then led to you trying to make up the power by adding more throttle, which just spun the wheels and started you digging. At this point you are of course buggered.

The sand setting was great as long as you weren't approaching the point of loss of traction, at which point it became a hinderence and you were better off in the mud setting.

What didn't help was the seeming inability to shift from drive to reverse quickly, which made it very hard to build momentum to get out of ruts.

by far the biggest problem was that because the car spent so long on the verge of getting stuck, or being stuck, you ended up working the engine VERY hard, which left it extremely hot, which shot the temp gauge up to the red, which then left you trying to cool the engine down the bonnet open at least once an hour.

Oddly a similar generation range rover sport didn't have the same issues. I suspect the D4s are considerably better as they are an improvement all round.

[camel_landy]

On the D4 & later RRS, there are some specific changes to the 'Sand' mode around this sort of area... When starting off, the power will be delivered gently until the car can sense it is moving. Once moving, it changes to a more aggressive throttle mapping.

M

Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 12th February 08:03

[100SRV]

camel_landy said:

On the D4 & later RRS, there are some specific changes to the 'Sand' mode around this sort of area... When starting off, the power will be delivered gently until the car can sense it is moving. Once moving, it changes to a more aggressive throttle mapping.

M

Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 12th February 08:03

Something about traction control on off-road 4x4s has puzzled me - how does the car know it is moving - is there a doppler ultrasonic motion sensor to supplement the wheel speed sensors or does it just assume that if all four are turning the car must be moving?

[Siscar]

100SRV said:

Something about traction control on off-road 4x4s has puzzled me - how does the car know it is moving - is there a doppler ultrasonic motion sensor to supplement the wheel speed sensors or does it just assume that if all four are turning the car must be moving?

But it's not traction control he's referring to.

[camel_landy]

100SRV said:

Something about traction control on off-road 4x4s has puzzled me - how does the car know it is moving - is there a doppler ultrasonic motion sensor to supplement the wheel speed sensors or does it just assume that if all four are turning the car must be moving?

There's a motion sensor on the chassis.

Technically, it's for 'Terrain Response' and not for the 'Traction Control' (though one controlls the other...).

M

[100SRV]

The ***** section below makes me think that traction control is involved and partly culpable.

Siscar said:

But it's not traction control he's referring to.

camel_landy said:

camel_landy said:
On the D4 & later RRS, there are some specific changes to the 'Sand' mode around this sort of area...

• ***

When starting off, the power will be delivered gently until the car can sense it is moving. *****
Once moving, it changes to a more aggressive throttle mapping.
M
Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 12th February 08:03

[Siscar]

Well it depends on the terrain that you are on, traction control may be part of it but there's a whole lot more to it, switching off traction control or limiting it is a key part of what happens in sand mode.

[camel_landy]

Siscar said:

Well it depends on the terrain that you are on, traction control may be part of it but there's a whole lot more to it, switching off traction control or limiting it is a key part of what happens in sand mode.

Which is why you disable DSC as DSC can cut the power delivery.

M

[100SRV]

Hmmm, thanks and apologies to the OP for dragging this O/T.

I'll stick with CDL, front and rear LSD and E-lockers when required and hope that low vehicle mass and EFi modulated by HSTC more than equal to the task. ;-)

[budrover]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

And yet utterly dreadful in the hot and sand

Have been into the Sahara on four occasions now, with two 110s (one new puma and one td5), a d3 diesel and my landcruiser 80.

The puma was faultless, the disco was constantly stuck. My 24 year old cruiser was cooler inside, didn't overheat at all (the disco spent most of the time with bonnet up) and pulled the disco out constantly.

We all tried the disco (drivers included a LR experience trainer, a British rally champion, the owner and me), and it wasn't down to bad driving, fir some reason to spent the whole time sinking, or being underpowered.

We had the same problem with a Disco 3 - but then read the manual - you have to turn off the DSC - otherwise the control system thinks the car is sliding and applies the brakes / cuts the power causing the car to sink. Once we sorted this out we had no problem ...except for vehicle wanting to lower down over 30 mph.


We were over for the Tuareg Rally, and one of the drivers had an Algerian spec RR Sport - he told us he quite confidently goes a couple of hundred miles into the desert at the weekend ...he said so remote ...if you breakdown or roll ...you phone for a helicopter to come and get you. His car was on 16 inch tyres so he could air down and get better grip ...something which is harder with low profile tyres.

[shirt]

how do you rate the lr3 off road and in the dunes? i am looking to replace my wrangler with something a lot more on-road firendly and the v8 is top of the list at the moment. will likely have to be an auto though as manuals are rare here.

[TLandCruiser]

shirt said:

how do you rate the lr3 off road and in the dunes? i am looking to replace my wrangler with something a lot more on-road firendly and the v8 is top of the list at the moment. will likely have to be an auto though as manuals are rare here.

I fancy a 5 door wrangler, how did you find yours? hows the reliability...one thing that puts me off is them being mostly 2wd

[shirt]

are you in dubai? best place for used cars is dubizzle.com

mine is a TJ, the 5dr unlimited is the newer JK which is supposed to be more refined. as standard they are very very reliable. if they've been modified then it depends how well it's been done and whether maintenance has been kept up to date. bushes, ball joints etc. wear more quickly with sand getting in there for instance.

suprised at the 2wd comment, i have not seen a single one as that would not sell well at all here.

[TLandCruiser]

shirt said:

are you in dubai? best place for used cars is dubizzle.com

mine is a TJ, the 5dr unlimited is the newer JK which is supposed to be more refined. as standard they are very very reliable. if they've been modified then it depends how well it's been done and whether maintenance has been kept up to date. bushes, ball joints etc. wear more quickly with sand getting in there for instance.

suprised at the 2wd comment, i have not seen a single one as that would not sell well at all here.

No in the uk, the JKs are 2wd with selectable 4wd is what I was suppose to say

[shirt]

re: pugwash's tales of poor performance in the sand and engine on boost. what engine was this? i am looking at the LR3 with 4.4 v8.

i doubt i will be going into the dunes. i have a fully desert spec'd wrangler and it gets very little use out in the virgin desert as i don't know anyone with a vehicle who can keep up. it'll be used more for trails, wadis, camping and for the daily commute.

[PugwasHDJ80]

shirt said:

re: pugwash's tales of poor performance in the sand and engine on boost. what engine was this? i am looking at the LR3 with 4.4 v8.

i doubt i will be going into the dunes. i have a fully desert spec'd wrangler and it gets very little use out in the virgin desert as i don't know anyone with a vehicle who can keep up. it'll be used more for trails, wadis, camping and for the daily commute.

Tdi

Petrol could be a VERY different animal, and I certaly wouldn't want to put you off them . They are lovely vehicles, just make sure they work for you in the environment yo are going to use them.

Having offloaded with a few wranglers over the years wiith the j33p club I commend you on your choice- in the uk they are very very under rated with little cause.

Have a look at v8 100 series landcruisers- probably too big, but they work very very well in the sand.

[shirt]

size isn't a problem, cost is [landcruisers hold they're money very well here] and looks [don't really like them!].

the lr3 is attractive as they are quite the wallflower. on the local classifieds there are 400+ RR's compared to 20ish LR3's and barely double figure LR4's.

they're in the shadow of the RR and locals tend not to buy them. they seem to be the preserve of expat mums for school runs and the odd bargain hunter such as myself. for example a fully loaded 2006 model with under 100,000km can be had for £6-8k. this would only get you a very leggy 2003 RR or a shagged out ladcruiser or patrol. other options would be low rent [imho] cars such as the ford explorer and pajero, and leggy softroaders such as the toureg or bmw x5.

i would love a patrol super safari but at this price point the LR3 is looking quite the prize. i have read that they are thirsty and weigh a considerable amount but looks good inside and out, will tow well, waft nicely on road and be a good all rounder i reckon.

anything i should be aware of regarding reliability and upgrades to aid hot weather performance?