REAL Off-road built like a tank that doesn't break the bank?

REAL Off-road built like a tank that doesn't break the bank?

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J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Monday 11th May 2015
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TurboHatchback said:
Y60 Patrols are thin on the ground nowadays (especially with the most desirable 4.2td engine) and often rusty.
Ok, but if I would find one in good condition are they really that much worse than the Y61? The Y60 is the only Patrol I like in terms of looks.


TurboHatchback said:
The Y61 patrol is a better vehicle all round IMHO.
Could you elaborate in which way?

TurboHatchback said:
For £5k the full size Landcruiser you would be looking at is the 80 series. These are proper beasts, built to last and take on pretty much anything you can think of. They weigh 2.5+ tons, have immensely strong live axles (coil sprung), triple electric locking differentials and proper engines (4.2td I6 or 4.5 petrol I6), if you're after the daddy of off road trucks that can still be used as a family car then these are it.
Quite large a car. But at least the J80 is my favorite of them and the last one I would consider. Starting with the J100 they look horrible and seem like just a poser luxury truck. Even if they aren't. Back when I was still considering the Defender I thought of a FJ40 for a brief moment. But that is a tractor. smile The new FJ seem nice but too expensive. But I heard it's a proper off road.

TurboHatchback said:
That said if safety is what you're after then a big old 4x4 is not the answer. Yes they are big, strong and heavy but they don't stop or turn anything like a decent car, they will roll under certain violent cornering moves, they don't have the active safety features that a modern car has etc etc. Living in the UK I can safely say you don't need one either, a normal largish car possibly with AWD and winter tyres is the practical answer, an Audi A6 Quattro Avant or Subaru Legacy etc. I've had two 80 series Landcruisers, they are great at what they do but for day to day use they are totally unnecessary and rather compromised.
It's interesting that you say that because the family member who became a vegetable from a small rear crash was in an 2012 Audi.
Like i said, I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. I know a truck won't turn like a Ferrari so I won't drive it like one. By the way, I'm not in the UK. I live around the Alpes now and although not directly at the Alpes it gets pretty hilly if i drive just a few minutes off.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Monday 11th May 2015
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just fit an exo-cage to whatever you buy, and then gleefully make use of the crumple zone attached to whomever you hit smile ..... again and again!


J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Monday 11th May 2015
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Gary C said:
The land cruiser I always though of as a Chelsea tractor until I did an off road driving day with Kannku in the lakes.
As hard to believable as it may seen, somebody just suggested me a Cadillac Escalade! Talk about Chelsea tractor. Is there are more useless SUV? That was after I had mentioned I need a proper 4x4 and don't want a poser truck. Some people are just so out of touch.


Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 17:01

TurboHatchback

4,151 posts

152 months

Monday 11th May 2015
quotequote all
J4x4K said:
Ok, but if I would find one in good condition are they really that much worse than the Y61? The Y60 is the only Patrol I like in terms of looks.


TurboHatchback said:
The Y61 patrol is a better vehicle all round IMHO.
Could you elaborate in which way?
The driveline of the Y61 is just as strong as the Y60 as is the chassis. The Y61 suspension is better (detachable roll bar for huge articulation whilst still maintaining a modicum of body control on the road). Basically the Y61 has all the toughness and and off road capability that the Y60 does but with a degree of civility that means it can be practically used every day on the road. The Y60 4.2td is a good strong and vaguely economical engine but all the others are either very slow or very thirsty. The Y61 with the 3.0Di engine is reasonably economical and fast enough for what it is.

J4x4K said:
It's interesting that you say that because the family member who became a vegetable from a small rear crash was in an 2012 Audi.
Like i said, I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. I know a truck won't turn like a Ferrari so I won't drive it like one. By the way, I'm not in the UK. I live around the Alpes now and although not directly at the Alpes it gets pretty hilly if i drive just a few minutes off.
I am also only really worried about people crashing into me rather than the other way round but I still maintain that in a normal modern performance car you are much better able to dodge out the way of idiots or stop when they blindly pull out into your path. I'm not by any means suggesting that 4x4s are unsafe, just that on balance a large modern performance car is safer.

DelicaL400

516 posts

110 months

Monday 11th May 2015
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A Delica L400? Not 4 door but does have a big sliding one on one side. Basically a Shogun with a more practical body.

J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Monday 11th May 2015
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DelicaL400 said:
A Delica L400?
A Minivan? Not what I'm looking for. If I would ever decide to drive a van around there is only one 4x4 van I would want. VW LT 4x4.

J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Monday 11th May 2015
quotequote all
TurboHatchback said:
J4x4K said:
Ok, but if I would find one in good condition are they really that much worse than the Y61? The Y60 is the only Patrol I like in terms of looks.


TurboHatchback said:
The Y61 patrol is a better vehicle all round IMHO.
Could you elaborate in which way?
The driveline of the Y61 is just as strong as the Y60 as is the chassis. The Y61 suspension is better (detachable roll bar for huge articulation whilst still maintaining a modicum of body control on the road). Basically the Y61 has all the toughness and and off road capability that the Y60 does but with a degree of civility that means it can be practically used every day on the road. The Y60 4.2td is a good strong and vaguely economical engine but all the others are either very slow or very thirsty. The Y61 with the 3.0Di engine is reasonably economical and fast enough for what it is.
So you mean the Y60 is not a good daily driver?

And how do you think a Patrol would fair against a Pathfinder?



TurboHatchback said:
J4x4K said:
It's interesting that you say that because the family member who became a vegetable from a small rear crash was in an 2012 Audi.
Like i said, I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. I know a truck won't turn like a Ferrari so I won't drive it like one. By the way, I'm not in the UK. I live around the Alpes now and although not directly at the Alpes it gets pretty hilly if i drive just a few minutes off.
I am also only really worried about people crashing into me rather than the other way round but I still maintain that in a normal modern performance car you are much better able to dodge out the way of idiots or stop when they blindly pull out into your path. I'm not by any means suggesting that 4x4s are unsafe, just that on balance a large modern performance car is safer.
Ok. With a performance car I think it would corner and break better than a truck. But most cars on the road are not performance cars. Do you think most cars on the road, meaning normal, run of the mill cars, would break and corner and be safer than an off road? I don't know. I just feel that 9 out of 10 times a larger and tough 4x4 SUV when crashed against a car will get out of the crash with less damage to the car and occupants. Now crashing on fixed objects like walls and trees is a different matter, but this is for all cars. But when crashing against other vehicles, unless in extreme cases, the tougher, bigger and heavier vehicle will always survive better than the smaller, weaker lighter one. No?

So if a SUV can't stop before a car hits it when the idiot blindly pull out into your path, the idiot vehicle, if a normal car will take most of the damage anyways.


Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 23:00


Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 23:13

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Monday 11th May 2015
quotequote all
J4x4K said:
A Minivan? Not what I'm looking for. If I would ever decide to drive a van around there is only one 4x4 van I would want. VW LT 4x4.
errrm... unimog 416 is what you should have said

3.5t of indestructable awesome



J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Monday 11th May 2015
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
errrm... unimog 416 is what you should have said

3.5t of indestructable awesome

I said van. The Unimog is a truck as far as I'm concerned.


But I heard it drives like a tractor, so not a good daily driver. And crazy expensive. Arnold has one, hehehe.

Howitzer

2,828 posts

215 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
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My Defender has a 4mm plate front bumper which has then been boxed in, it looks slightly different than normal but you have to be a fan to see the difference. It is solidly bolted to my chassis with 12.9 grade bolts and is incredibly solid.

When driving in Norway a colleague mentioned how if you lose grip and think all is lost, aim for a snow bank to reduce your speed. For a bit of fun I tried this at no more than 15 mph and I saw stars the stop was so quick. It was a very hard snow bank and the shock which went into my neck was an eye opener.

Crumple zones will save you, a solid chassis imo wont.

Dave!


J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
quotequote all
Howitzer said:
My Defender has a 4mm plate front bumper which has then been boxed in, it looks slightly different than normal but you have to be a fan to see the difference. It is solidly bolted to my chassis with 12.9 grade bolts and is incredibly solid.

When driving in Norway a colleague mentioned how if you lose grip and think all is lost, aim for a snow bank to reduce your speed. For a bit of fun I tried this at no more than 15 mph and I saw stars the stop was so quick. It was a very hard snow bank and the shock which went into my neck was an eye opener.

Crumple zones will save you, a solid chassis imo wont.

Dave!
Sure. But what do you make of the Patrol vs the Focus story?

Besides a Y61 Patrol is a lot more modern and advanced design than a Defender. There is a reason I cut the Defender off my list even before coming here. wink It's 1950's technology and design. wink

Howitzer

2,828 posts

215 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
quotequote all
J4x4K said:
Sure. But what do you make of the Patrol vs the Focus story?

Besides a Y61 Patrol is a lot more modern and advanced design than a Defender. There is a reason I cut the Defender off my list even before coming here. wink It's 1950's technology and design. wink
I see that aslong as you never hit anything more rigid than you then you will be ok. So apart from most lorries, large vans, trees, barriers, buses, multiple impacts and the million other possible things to hit on our road network through either your own or someone elses fault you will probably be ok.

I chose a W164 ML as my everyday family car due to its safety cell and all round airbags, great brakes and road holding during hard manouvers. I am in no way a "Think of the children parent" and take my 14 month old out in my Defender a lot but there is no getting away that the W164 is massively safer than most cars built even 10 years before. A strong ladder frame chassis just doesn't lend itself to a controlled deformation imo.

I crashed a Hilux in Africa, it was a brand new 2004 model and after a snafoo the only thing saving the cabin from being crushed was the roll bar ours were fitted with. Old technology and rigid chassis.

Dave!

J4x4K

Original Poster:

235 posts

106 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
quotequote all
Howitzer said:
I see that aslong as you never hit anything more rigid than you then you will be ok.
This is the point. The odds are more that you will hit another vehicle or be hit by another vehicle than you will hit a wall. As long as you are a good driver, don't drive drunk etc.

Howitzer said:
So apart from most lorries, large vans, trees, barriers, buses, multiple impacts and the million other possible things to hit on our road network through either your own or someone elses fault you will probably be ok.
You make it sounds like the majority of vehciles on the road are bigger and tougher than a Patrol. It's the other way around. Bigger and tougher vehicles are the exception. I think you will be better off in a Patrol than a W164 for most collisions. Anything but a head on crash on a concrete wall or against another car head on, which is more rare than somebody bumping into you, scraps etc.

Howitzer said:
I chose a W164 ML as my everyday family car due to its safety cell and all round airbags, great brakes and road holding during hard manouvers.
I's not like a 2010 SUV is that much worse than this Mercedes, is it? Does it break and handle like a Ferrari or what?

Howitzer said:
I am in no way a "Think of the children parent" and take my 14 month old out in my Defender a lot but there is no getting away that the W164 is massively safer than most cars built even 10 years before.
I'm thinking of going with a Nissan Patrol Y61, which was made till 2010. Hardly 10 years. Actually it is still being made and sold today to the UN and Military.

Howitzer said:
I crashed a Hilux in Africa, it was a brand new 2004 model and after a snafoo the only thing saving the cabin from being crushed was the roll bar ours were fitted with. Old technology and rigid chassis.
Did you crash it into a rock? To crash on standing objects like a wall, trees etc that's where a crumple zone system is superior. To carsh into smaller and lighter moving things, toughness is better. As most vehicles or rather the huge majority of vehicles are smaller and les tough than a Land Cruiser or Patrol, odds are for it over the weaker crumple zone based vehicles. I'm sure a Patrol would destroy a W164 in a crash and the Patrol occupants would probably be better off.

Stu R

21,410 posts

214 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
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Patrols are bombproof if you don't mind the agricultural engine and box. I've had 2 of them, amongst other things. Land cruisers are better but more complex, neither has form for breaking.

Howitzer

2,828 posts

215 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
quotequote all
Excuse the lack of direct quoting, i'm not that savvy yet laugh

The point is that I would rather rely on my own crumple zones which will cover all eventualities, not just those that suit the crash.

The patrols and Land Cruisers were all 2004 Vintage I drove but the 2005 Cherokee was laughably behind in the handling and road holding compared to the 2006 ML. It wallowed (on new shock absorbers, no idea on bushes or springs) and wasn't tied down well at all when having a play. With regards to airbags etc I don't know what the Cherokee is equipped with. The ML stopping power was a whole league above the Jeep and a high point for me personally.

Just because a model is still made doesn't mean its underlying chassis is anything but old tech. The environments a Patrol, Land Cruiser and Defender for example are built for is hardly the UK norm. It's why they are so well suited to the environments they are popular.

No rock, the rear shackle snapped, the back axle turned through 45 degrees and it flipped onto its roof. No more than 60kph when it happened.



I've certainly not got a downer on these cars, I just think safety has come a long long way and the way modern 4X4s are built compared to older styles makes them far safer.

Dave!

TurboHatchback

4,151 posts

152 months

Wednesday 13th May 2015
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Fundamentally the only safety advantage ladder chassis 4x4s have is size, weight and height. A current Range Rover (equivalant size, weight and height) with its Monocoque chassis, safety cell and crumple zones etc will be safer in every form of collision than an old ladder chassis 4x4 with no crumple zones. A 4x4 is more likely to ride up over another car (and less likely to suffer the same) but otherwise I maintain a large luxury car like the S-Class, Phaeton etc is safer (I believe the statistics back this up too).

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Up your budget and buy a Discovery 3.

Supernova190188

887 posts

138 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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I've got a 1996 hilux surf 3.0td, so far seems pretty capable and tough! If I didn't have this I'd have gone for a land cruiser 4.2td, Nissan patrol Y61 or an Isuzu trooper 3.1td.
I did have a defender 90 , 300tdi and while it was incredible off road, it was just so unreliable, nothing major went wrong in the 3 years I had it but just constant niggly little things would go all the time!

S10GTA

12,645 posts

166 months

Tuesday 19th May 2015
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Has nobody mentioned an XC90 yet?

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Tuesday 19th May 2015
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J4x4K said:
So I had originally thought of a Land Rover Defender. But I learned it has a rural ride and this is to be my daily family driver. So I need some level of comfort. Need nothing fancy. Just some basics. So the Defender is out.
A defender is your best bet...

They can be soundproofed and upgraded to a fair degree of comfort.

Can bolt on a fair bit of armour as well