Ok, so I have narrowed it down to these vehicles. What now?
Discussion
General opinion among the serious off-roaders I know is that the Patrol has the stronger drivetrain (older LC's for sale often have rebuilt diffs) while the Landcruiser chassis will last a bit longer if you're giving them both nasty flexing etc.
Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.
Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.
GravelBen said:
Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.
Is the 4.2td available in the OPs market (I though he was in central Europe somewhere)? I know the 4.2td was not offered in the UK though the ZD30 issues seem reportedly much less common here than in Australia, possibly due to the climate. If it is available then yes absolutely go for the 4.2td, otherwise I think the issues with the ZD30 are somewhat overstated, I've not heard of it being a major issue in the UK anyway.
TurboHatchback said:
I'm also not a fan of Landrover products, modified Defenders have a certain appeal as pure off-roaders but the rest of the range not so much. It sounds to me like you need to find a manual 80 series Cruiser and a Patrol to test drive.
Whilst it's true they have no equal when it comes to dependability and in the most inhospitable places on earth they drive nothing else do you really need that? I seem to recall that your original requirements were for a family car also used for some occasional light off-roading. A full size Landcruiser or Patrol is spectacular overkill for that role, there are many smaller cheaper vehicles that would do the trick, cost less to run and be less cumbersome for day to day duties. I have a HDJ80 manual but I bought it for a trip to Iceland this summer where its capabilities will be required (it will probably be sold afterward), I wouldn't choose it as my only car for driving to the shops and back.
Well, it won't be the only car. We also have a station wagon which I'm sure we are keeping. But it will be the main car, specially every time we have the baby with us. Whilst it's true they have no equal when it comes to dependability and in the most inhospitable places on earth they drive nothing else do you really need that? I seem to recall that your original requirements were for a family car also used for some occasional light off-roading. A full size Landcruiser or Patrol is spectacular overkill for that role, there are many smaller cheaper vehicles that would do the trick, cost less to run and be less cumbersome for day to day duties. I have a HDJ80 manual but I bought it for a trip to Iceland this summer where its capabilities will be required (it will probably be sold afterward), I wouldn't choose it as my only car for driving to the shops and back.
The Patrol seems to be a bit smaller than the Land Cruiser 80 and this is also another reason I'm gravitating towards the Patrol. But something smaller like a Pathfinder or the Isuzu Trooper starts losing that tank quality I'm also after. Also, I do need the reliability. Not only for off roading but for everyday driving. Don't want something that will breakdown often, like a Land Rover (sorry, couldn't resist).
So everything points to the Patrol Y61 being the perfect fit. Is the road driving on it that bad? I saw several video reviews and some say it is still rough and others say it's quite comfortable for a vehicle of it's size and some even say not much different from a family sedan apart from the high end ones.
Yes. weekend off roading, pay and play, camping and I'm also thinking of making that Iceland trip of yours. You have inspired me.
But starting from behind the Alpes, where we live. 
Efbe said:
am suprised by the vague steering comments on the XJ. It's probably the most car like proper 4x4 I have driven.
This may be to do with what tyres/lift you have on it, but I found the XJ excellent on the road.
for other options, never driven one offroad but how about a vitara or grand vitara. comes with a low box, cheap to buy, comparitively good on fuel.
The Suzukis are way too small, specially the Vitara. My original requisites require 4 doors and be like a tank. This may be to do with what tyres/lift you have on it, but I found the XJ excellent on the road.
for other options, never driven one offroad but how about a vitara or grand vitara. comes with a low box, cheap to buy, comparitively good on fuel.
SHutchinson said:
I can't help but thinking after reading the last thread and this one that you're going to end up buying a Citroen Xsara Picasso.
Not a chance. HATE minivans. Even that 4x4 one that was suggested I wouldn't touch with a 10 miles pole. Sorry. I'm pretty set on the Patrol and actively looking for one. But can't find anything but 2.8s for sale.
GravelBen said:
General opinion among the serious off-roaders I know is that the Patrol has the stronger drivetrain (older LC's for sale often have rebuilt diffs) while the Landcruiser chassis will last a bit longer if you're giving them both nasty flexing etc.
Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.
Yeah, I think the Patrol is the right one for me over the LC. But I think I would be happy with either.Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.
TurboHatchback said:
Is the 4.2td available in the OPs market (I though he was in central Europe somewhere)? I know the 4.2td was not offered in the UK though the ZD30 issues seem reportedly much less common here than in Australia, possibly due to the climate. If it is available then yes absolutely go for the 4.2td, otherwise I think the issues with the ZD30 are somewhat overstated, I've not heard of it being a major issue in the UK anyway.
Yep, I would love a 4.2 but can't find anything but 2.8s and some 3.0s. I found one 4.2 but the guy was asking like 30,000 for it. Yes I'm in central Europe but I looked all over including the UK. 4.2 anywhere in Europe seems like a hard find!
J4x4K said:
The Patrol seems to be a bit smaller than the Land Cruiser 80 and this is also another reason I'm gravitating towards the Patrol.
It isn't, the 5 door Y61 is actually a bit longer than the 80 (though with vehicles this size it's rather splitting hairs). The Y61 does of course also come in three door form which is considerably shorter.J4x4K said:
So everything points to the Patrol Y61 being the perfect fit. Is the road driving on it that bad? I saw several video reviews and some say it is still rough and others say it's quite comfortable for a vehicle of it's size and some even say not much different from a family sedan apart from the high end ones.
It depends on your point of reference really! Compared to a Defender it is streets ahead, compared to a performance car it is rubbish. I think for a large proper 4x4 they really aren't too bad, the negative reviews usually compare them with things like X5s which are a completely different type of vehicle. Ultimately a ladder chassis live axle 4x4 with excellent axle articulation, a high center of gravity, heavy wheels and off-road tyres and slow geared steering will never go, stop or turn as well as a normal car on tarmac but IMO the Patrol does an acceptable job.They're certainly comfy though.
TurboHatchback said:
J4x4K said:
The Patrol seems to be a bit smaller than the Land Cruiser 80 and this is also another reason I'm gravitating towards the Patrol.
It isn't, the 5 door Y61 is actually a bit longer than the 80 (though with vehicles this size it's rather splitting hairs). The Y61 does of course also come in three door form which is considerably shorter.The 3 door Patrol is not for me. I need 4 doors.
TurboHatchback said:
J4x4K said:
So everything points to the Patrol Y61 being the perfect fit. Is the road driving on it that bad? I saw several video reviews and some say it is still rough and others say it's quite comfortable for a vehicle of it's size and some even say not much different from a family sedan apart from the high end ones.
It depends on your point of reference really! Compared to a Defender it is streets ahead, compared to a performance car it is rubbish. I think for a large proper 4x4 they really aren't too bad, the negative reviews usually compare them with things like X5s which are a completely different type of vehicle. Ultimately a ladder chassis live axle 4x4 with excellent axle articulation, a high center of gravity, heavy wheels and off-road tyres and slow geared steering will never go, stop or turn as well as a normal car on tarmac but IMO the Patrol does an acceptable job.They're certainly comfy though.
But I'm not expecting the Patrol to handle like a sports car. Although I heard the dynamic vehicle control thing helps a lot. But I'm just hoping it is not a rough ride, with a too rough neck breaking suspension and too much of a truck ride experience. I know it won't turn like a BMW sedan or go like a Nissan 350Z or stop like a Porsch 911. Although I hope it won't be unsafe in the breaks.
Edited by J4x4K on Tuesday 19th May 14:43
The most serious ZD30 issue (melting pistons) is generally caused by a dodgy earth on the MAF sensor (according to a mate who is a very good diesel mechanic), so thats easily avoided. The fuel pumps still tend to give up around the 100k-120k mile mark and its an engine out job to replace them, so thats expensive but I guess no worse than well known problems with other vehicles.
I haven't driven a Y61, but have driven quite a few Y60s in SWB and LWB form - I prefer them (on and off road) to the Prado, LC80 and Range Rovers that I've driven. You're aware that they're a big heavy vehicle, but they're quite well balanced and the controls have some good honest mechanical feedback.
I haven't driven a Y61, but have driven quite a few Y60s in SWB and LWB form - I prefer them (on and off road) to the Prado, LC80 and Range Rovers that I've driven. You're aware that they're a big heavy vehicle, but they're quite well balanced and the controls have some good honest mechanical feedback.
GravelBen said:
The most serious ZD30 issue (melting pistons) is generally caused by a dodgy earth on the MAF sensor (according to a mate who is a very good diesel mechanic), so thats easily avoided. The fuel pumps still tend to give up around the 100k-120k mile mark and its an engine out job to replace them, so thats expensive but I guess no worse than well known problems with other vehicles.The most serious ZD30 issue (melting pistons) is generally caused by a dodgy earth on the MAF sensor (according to a mate who is a very good diesel mechanic),
Well, it seems in Europe and UK is either the 3.0 or 2.8. The 4.2 is nearly impossible to find. So is the 3.0 at least better than the 2.8 or is it a toss?
GravelBen said:
so I haven't driven a Y61, but have driven quite a few Y60s in SWB and LWB form - I prefer them (on and off road) to the Prado, LC80 and Range Rovers that I've driven. You're aware that they're a big heavy vehicle, but they're quite well balanced and the controls have some good honest mechanical feedback.
So you found the Y60 better on the road than a Range Rover?So I just came back from a Dealer who had a 2001 Y61 3.0 which I found online. Unfortunately it was already sold when I got there and the person will pick it up this afternoon. So I couldn't test drive it. But I looked at it and I have to say the dimensions are really misleading. Maybe because the round corners design. It barely looks much bigger than a Pathfinder or a Blazer if you don't have them side by side.
The interesting thing is that he had a 2001 Range Rover P38A he was trying to get me to buy since the Patrol is sold. I thought the Range Rovers would be more expensive than the Patrol, specially that it is the top of the Land Rover line. But even though it was the same year and had similar mileage it was 1,000 cheaper. Maybe the cult status of the Patrol helps or because it's imported and the RR is made in Europe, don't know. I just always thought the RR would cost more.
The Rage Rover looked great. Very good condition and the leather inside didn't have any tears. The Patrol's leather was a bit worn at places. The Range Rover is my favorite Land Rover after the Defender. Actually is the only other one I would even look at. I always hated the Discovery, the Freelander is a Golf and before I bought something like an Evoque I would buy a real sports car.
The Range Rover at least looks a bit tougher. But only the Classic, P38A and somewhat the L322. The L405 went overboard with the styling. Too fancy for something that is made to also go into muddy water, if it still is made for that.
But anyway, the Range Rover he had looked good and I would have test driven it if it wasn't an automatic. He said he never saw a manual one but according to Wikipedia they were made.
But I guess it is just not comparable to the Patrol. Inside it looks nicer. But off roading I would rather be in a Patrol.
But even the P38A is too slick for an off road. Every lifted Range Rover I've seen looks ridiculous. The RR Classic gets a pass. But P38A and L322 just look out of place with proper off road tires and higher suspension. It only looks good at the original lower height and with those "car like" tires. It's more of a station wagon looking car than an off road style. Since I want to lift whatever off road I end up buying the Range Rover is probably not it. It is also heavier, right? But the main problem that scares me is the unreliability.
I wonder if the build quality and reliability is really as bad as people say? While you hear that Patrols and LCs never break, all you hear is how often Land Rovers break. Even wiki says: "Low resale value after warranty and reliability issues are common complaints."
I guess that at least explains why the Range Rover was cheaper than the Patrol.
The interesting thing is that he had a 2001 Range Rover P38A he was trying to get me to buy since the Patrol is sold. I thought the Range Rovers would be more expensive than the Patrol, specially that it is the top of the Land Rover line. But even though it was the same year and had similar mileage it was 1,000 cheaper. Maybe the cult status of the Patrol helps or because it's imported and the RR is made in Europe, don't know. I just always thought the RR would cost more.
The Rage Rover looked great. Very good condition and the leather inside didn't have any tears. The Patrol's leather was a bit worn at places. The Range Rover is my favorite Land Rover after the Defender. Actually is the only other one I would even look at. I always hated the Discovery, the Freelander is a Golf and before I bought something like an Evoque I would buy a real sports car.
The Range Rover at least looks a bit tougher. But only the Classic, P38A and somewhat the L322. The L405 went overboard with the styling. Too fancy for something that is made to also go into muddy water, if it still is made for that.
But anyway, the Range Rover he had looked good and I would have test driven it if it wasn't an automatic. He said he never saw a manual one but according to Wikipedia they were made.
But I guess it is just not comparable to the Patrol. Inside it looks nicer. But off roading I would rather be in a Patrol.
But even the P38A is too slick for an off road. Every lifted Range Rover I've seen looks ridiculous. The RR Classic gets a pass. But P38A and L322 just look out of place with proper off road tires and higher suspension. It only looks good at the original lower height and with those "car like" tires. It's more of a station wagon looking car than an off road style. Since I want to lift whatever off road I end up buying the Range Rover is probably not it. It is also heavier, right? But the main problem that scares me is the unreliability.
I wonder if the build quality and reliability is really as bad as people say? While you hear that Patrols and LCs never break, all you hear is how often Land Rovers break. Even wiki says: "Low resale value after warranty and reliability issues are common complaints."
I guess that at least explains why the Range Rover was cheaper than the Patrol.
J4x4K said:
So is the 3.0 at least better than the 2.8 or is it a toss?
The ZD30 is newer tech with a heap more grunt, the RD28 is ok once you get the revs up but lacks low down torque. Not sure how the 2.8 compares for reliability, they're not very popular here because there are plenty of 4.2s around. I guess the other option (if there are any around) is a petrol one converted to LPG.J4x4K said:
So you found the Y60 better on the road than a Range Rover?
Definitely - but I've only driven one Rangie, a late 90s HSE V8. The interior was comfortable enough and it rumbled along nicely in a straight line, but it was like an ocean liner through the corners. Felt about a ton heavier than the Patrol, vague wooly steering and uninspiring brakes. Didn't do any proper off-road driving with it to compare that aspect, just a few farm tracks.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 20th May 13:10
GravelBen said:
Definitely - but I've only driven one Rangie, a late 90s HSE V8. The interior was comfortable enough and it rumbled along nicely in a straight line, but it was like an ocean liner through the corners. Felt about a ton heavier than the Patrol, vague wooly steering and uninspiring brakes.
Didn't do any proper off-road driving with it to compare that aspect, just a few farm tracks.
Interesting. So it was already a P38A. It's good to know though that the Patrol doesn't feel like a boat. I think if you liked the Y60 better on the road than the Range Rover the Y61 probably does even better on the road as it is more refined than the Y60 in this aspect. Didn't do any proper off-road driving with it to compare that aspect, just a few farm tracks.
Any advice about the 2.8 vs 3.0 question? I have all but given up in finding a 4.2.
GravelBen said:
Was just editing my previous reply to mention that - I'd go for the 3.0 over the 2.8.GravelBen said:
J4x4K said:
So is the 3.0 at least better than the 2.8 or is it a toss?
The ZD30 is newer tech with a heap more grunt, the RD28 is ok once you get the revs up but lacks low down torque. Not sure how the 2.8 compares for reliability, they're not very popular here because there are plenty of 4.2s around. I guess the other option (if there are any around) is a petrol one converted to LPG.If you have plenty of 4.2s around I guess you are in Australia?
Edited by J4x4K on Wednesday 20th May 14:15
I'm in NZ, most of ours are Jap import Safaris rather than Patrols but essentially the same thing.
I don't think the ZD30 problems are climate related, more likely its just that Patrols/Safaris and Terranos are much more common vehicles on this side of the world so any problems are more well known. Maybe combine that with a higher proportion of people who use their 4wds harder with off-road use and towing boats etc?
I don't think the ZD30 problems are climate related, more likely its just that Patrols/Safaris and Terranos are much more common vehicles on this side of the world so any problems are more well known. Maybe combine that with a higher proportion of people who use their 4wds harder with off-road use and towing boats etc?
SHutchinson said:
Have you test-driven a car yet?
What's that supposed to mean? I sense some sarcasm.Like I said I test drove a Defender, Discovery and Grand Cherokees so far. The only local Y61 Patrol I found for sale was already sold when I got to the dealer so I couldn't test drive it.
At the end of the day your not going to tick "every box" on your want list.
They all have pro's and con's.
The thing that will sway it, is are you really going to spend much time off road or will the fact be you'll be driving on the tarmac 99.9% of the time ?
In which case get the 4x4 with the "better" road manners and creature comforts!
They all have pro's and con's.
The thing that will sway it, is are you really going to spend much time off road or will the fact be you'll be driving on the tarmac 99.9% of the time ?
In which case get the 4x4 with the "better" road manners and creature comforts!
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