Suggestions - for what 4x4 if not a Defender...

[GravelBen]

TurboHatchback said:

I am very biased but:

(Landcruiser)

If you want a real 4x4 for doing actual 4x4 things then there really is no equal.

Except the Nissan Patrol/Safari, but I don't know if they're commonly available where you are. After about 2000 the Nissans got a bit softer, but it sounds like the OP is after a bulletproof old tank which makes me think of 90s versions of both.

Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 7th November 11:06

[irish boy]

We run some 4x4's in work for the heavier dutys.

Land cruisers are great but we go patrols due to the cost, a good gq patrol 4.2 will be half the cost of a good 80 series, and believe me they're every bit as strong and rugged. Ours were bought to pull and the loads are large. They do it year upon year without compliant or major expense.

One of ours….




The other one I can recommend is a shogun. I run one as my personal vehicle (3rd one), the gen 3 (01-06) 3.2 or and early gen 4 (07-) would be in your budget. They drive well on road, especially the latest 200 brake euro 5 engine. are reliable and reasonably economical. The can also handle a bit of work should the need arise.

My current steed….

[OldGermanHeaps]

Crew cab hilux is a useful bit of kit.

[RumRunner]

Shogun....Best Value proper 4x4 out there...nothing gets close...15 years in the build means most of it is over built as a 90's design

[300bhp/ton]

mr_tony said:

Selfishly I think I'd enjoy the above - or a defender. But my boys will certainly be happier strapped in a land cruiser than a defender when it's required

Honestly, I think most kids, especially boys would love being in a Defender style vehicle far more. They are much more open, airy and less claustrophobic inside. So children often travel better and less car sickness.

The low window line also helps here I think. Plus there is just the sense of occasion of climbing up in something like the Santana or Defender, that few other 4x4's have.

[300bhp/ton]

RumRunner said:

Shogun....Best Value proper 4x4 out there...nothing gets close...15 years in the build means most of it is over built as a 90's design

Aren't they IFS though and have largish front and rear bumpers and overhangs.

I'd quite like to try one of them out and see how they compare off road. But I'd need convincing that they can cover the same sort of terrain.

[GravelBen]

The Mitsis aren't usually considered 'proper 4wds' down this side of the world, general opinion is they're not reliable or tough enough for serious off-road use. Haven't had one myself to give direct experience though.

Edited by GravelBen on Monday 9th November 10:41

[RumRunner]

If you talking L200 and Shogun sport then yes the 2.5 engine is rubbish. Others differen 2.8 and 3.2. Land cruiser Amazon prob the best but very expensive. Best comp is Big Shogun. Certianly a better ride than anything live axle 3.2 is independent front and rear, 2.8 live axle rear. Thought the Wrangler JK is very good considering its set up.
My 2.8 LWB is better than my Disco 1 V8 which is a defender under the body.. given the Shogun has a rear locker. However I have not taken it bolder bashing just soft sand and mud.

Edited by RumRunner on Monday 9th November 14:50

[RumRunner]

Watch out for oil pump failure on the Trooper, I had family and good friends who suffered that leaving them dead engines. One onwed from new and dead at 10k.
The land cruiser above is simpy the best but everybody knows that, so finding a minter is very hard and even harder to find one at sensible price.
The JK is very good but again used prices are solid. The panther CRD engine has some real guts, same engine in the wifes Nitro.

Edited by RumRunner on Monday 9th November 14:58

[mr_tony]

300bhp/ton said:

Honestly, I think most kids, especially boys would love being in a Defender style vehicle far more. They are much more open, airy and less claustrophobic inside. So children often travel better and less car sickness.

The low window line also helps here I think. Plus there is just the sense of occasion of climbing up in something like the Santana or Defender, that few other 4x4's have.

When you're ten maybe. When you're not quite 2 then trust me - not so much!

So far I s driven s couple of LC 80s a 2.7 Pajero (underpowered but very characterful) and have immediate and shed about old discoveries...

Currently tracking a 4.2 patrol and a 4.5 80 series LC...

Lots of dogs on eBay, and tough to find a decent non mega miles 80 series with the 4.2 diesel and an auto box..

Also love the earlier series from 199891993( 70 series).. Lots of character...most pretty rusty though...

[RumRunner]

Yes low window line is good toddlers...AkA disco 1 ...Mk2 Shogun...Defenders are hugely overpriced and also when it comes to passenger safety left lacking. Many insurance companies are turning down the older vehicles with side facing rear seats.
If you can find one a tidy Disco 2 is twice the vehicle of a defender almost the same offroad and for half the price. Just not seen as a must have for the trendys. Base models better....without sunroofs.Always ask for photo of the rear underside before you view one however as the rear main chassis rails rot. More so than a Disco 1 which rots around the rear arches and boot floor

Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 09:23

[mr_tony]

shogun could be a good shout, they're certainly in price range. Thanks...

[300bhp/ton]

RumRunner said:

Yes low window line is good toddlers...AkA disco 1 ...Mk2 Shogun...Defenders are hugely overpriced and also when it comes to passenger safety left lacking.

Yet statistically they fair rather well.

RumRunner said:

Many insurance companies are turning down the older vehicles with side facing rear seats.

Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 09:23

Surprised. Do you have any reference?

[RumRunner]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/uk-insu...

Plus I had issue with Disco 1 side facing rears.

Sorry but a defender has limited crumple zone compared to moderns and lack of airbags. Probable reason for safety record is low speed..ha. Its been banned in the U.S for a good while as well as pendestrian safety issues. Whatever they are simply overpriced. Td5 is decent enough engine but low geared. 2.4 Gearboxes chocolate and 2.2 is not enough
Best mix of Defender would be Td5 with later 2.2box...
Or LS3 on gas !

Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 12:38

[300bhp/ton]

2.2 and 2.4 engines make the wan power. The 2.2 more torque. They also use the same gearboxes, gearboxes used in the S197 V8 Mustang. They are more than up to the job.

A Td5 on standard 32" tall tyres pulls the same mph per 1000rpm as a standard Disco1 on standard 28-29" tyres.

They might be over priced. But they are also pretty unique in the market. So few direct competitors. And as residuals are so strong, they are likely to work out cheaper in the long run.

[mr_tony]

Defender is a moot point. I've got toddlers. A LWB county in decent nick isn't going to be around for 4k, so I've moved on.

What I have also realised is from the suggestions here are that old TD5 Discoveries look incredible value. I guess most are going to be rusty as hell, but I'll just have to get my head under them and cross my fingers. Are they massively unreliable compared to something like a Patrol? I'm getting rid of an L322 RRFFSC because of the incredible depreciation / bork factor combination... But £3k is less than I was figuring Id need to spend and if it ruins for a couple of years then its probably cheap motoring, anti would leave me a couple of grand over to sort out the old school 911 with a proper non race exhaust system so I can DD that in the summer instead which would be cool...

Still want an old school land cruiser, but the iceland expedition is probably a few years off yet. Maybe when the boys are bigger. Maybe I'll build up to one.

However having done a lot of digging, I do really like the shape of the 4.2 Patrol. I found this Patrol on Ebay. Its in Scotland, I have no idea if its good or not, but its a 4.2. Looks a bit shabby (rear window covered in gaffer tape etc) but half tempted to take a punt. Big risk given it's a case of flying into Glasgow on the basis it's good enough and I'm driving it home for 8 hours...

http://r.ebay.com/xU63Yk

Anyone want to be an armchair expert and encourage / warn me off?

[RumRunner]

300bhp/ton said:

2.2 and 2.4 engines make the wan power. The 2.2 more torque. They also use the same gearboxes, gearboxes used in the S197 V8 Mustang. They are more than up to the job.

A Td5 on standard 32" tall tyres pulls the same mph per 1000rpm as a standard Disco1 on standard 28-29" tyres.

They might be over priced. But they are also pretty unique in the market. So few direct competitors. And as residuals are so strong, they are likely to work out cheaper in the long run.

Its a well know problem on the early 6 speeds The ball detents lock. Note a mustang is not running 4x4 or transfer box with centre diff lock of towing big loads.
Landie owners make me laugh about values.
I purchased a 4months old 4k miles Wrangler Jk Sahara from the main dealers in snot green in 2009 at 14.5k. At the time Jeep were doing new one at around 17 to 18k.Jeeps Direct were doing the base LWB sport new for 15k. I sold it 6 months later for 15.5k. New one's now are plus 30k.
If you go on the net you will see that vehicles the same spec as mine 5 to 6 years on with 60k miles are the same price I paid for it when it was 4 months old.
Yes it was the time of the buy out with Fiat and they were brought in 07 and 08 when the Dollar was week. However its there to see. It was possible to buy almost new and in some case new, keep it for 5 to 7 years and mileage for nothing.

Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 13:33

[mr_tony]

Shogun looking a good call perhaps. Still rather smitten with the Patrol. Sure it looks like a bad idea buying a car 200 miles away sight unseen when the advertiser doesn't even provide a mobile phone number.. What could possibly go wrong...

Still considering MY2000 Discos - found a couple nearby at 3k, one v8 auto and one TD Manual. The manual is shabbier and rustier in the pics, but concerned about the autobox on the V8 and the number of toys it has which probably don't work...

Older Shogun / PAero 2.8s looking incredible value at around 1k? anything wrong with the 2.8s? A shed money 4x4 is quite attractive in some aspects...

[300bhp/ton]

mr_tony said:

Defender is a moot point. I've got toddlers. A LWB county in decent nick isn't going to be around for 4k, so I've moved on.

I'm not sure what reason toddlers would make a difference tbh? You mentioned earlier about 2 year olds not liking a Defender as much as an LC. Honestly I suspect they either wouldn't care, wouldn't know and if they did, they'd prefer the Landy.

My best friend has a 3 year old, completely nuts for Land Rovers. As do some friends who also have a boy only a couple of months older.

I do agree, a nice 110 may well be out of budget, hence my suggestion of the Santana. Remember Santana also used to build LR's under licence in the form of CKD's.

That all said, it is of course your choice, and you don't need to justify it. But i'm just pointing out a couple of things.

mr_tony said:

What I have also realised is from the suggestions here are that old TD5 Discoveries look incredible value. I guess most are going to be rusty as hell, but I'll just have to get my head under them and cross my fingers. Are they massively unreliable compared to something like a Patrol?

They aren't all rusty. A friend bought one for £1000 just over a year ago, it had a lot of miles on it. But was 100% rust free. She sold it on recently for £2500.

As for reliability, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. There is no reason why it shouldn't be reliable and durable. But it'll probably have a few niggles every now and again.

Central locking can stop working, but it isn't much to sort it. Td5's can suffer oil in the engine bay wiring loom, but again it's an easy fix. Some people have issues with the TCS/ABC, but it's nearly always a sensor. Likewise, the rear air suspension can cause problems, but the system isn't complex, so usually people make far more fuss over it than it's worth (not all D2's have air rear suspension). ACE can be leaky, but that's usually just age and lack of servicing. And again not a big issue really.

For the record, my Uncle has a Y plate D2, TD5 manual with all the bits on it. Owned since new, so that's 15 years or so. It's never really had any issues in that time. Couple of air backs and a bit of water hose I think. It's a farm vehicle too.

My cousins swapped a Toyota Hilux Surf for a D2, as the Toyota was problematic.

So, what I'm trying to say is. Don't expect a completely free ride, but they are probably not anywhere near as bad as some parts of the internet will have you believe.

And I don't honestly think a Nissan, Mitsu or Toyota are really any better in the grand scheme of things. All can have parts fail and all need to be maintained.

In the UK of course, you get quick, cheap and easy access to lots of parts for any Land Rover, you'll be able to buy anything off the shelf for them and usually have a choice of prices, from OEM, aftermarket and genuine. Something that simply isn't true for all of the Japanese offerings.

[300bhp/ton]

RumRunner said:

Its a well know problem on the early 6 speeds The ball detents lock.

But that is hardly the same as your earlier claims of "Gearboxes chocolate". There can be issues, but most of the time it's a cheap easy fix.

Certainly Dave Ashcroft of Ashcroft transmissions reckons they are more than up to the task, even in heavily modded Defenders, let alone bog standard ones.

RumRunner said:

Note a mustang is not running 4x4 or transfer box with centre diff lock of towing big loads.

No, but they often see 500-550hp and drag radials or ET Street tyres, enough grip to lift the front wheels off the ground under a hard launch, and they handle that just fine.

RumRunner said:

Landie owners make me laugh about values.
I purchased a 4months old 4k miles Wrangler Jk Sahara from the main dealers in snot green in 2009 at 14.5k. At the time Jeep were doing new one at around 17 to 18k.Jeeps Direct were doing the base LWB sport new for 15k. I sold it 6 months later for 15.5k. New one's now are plus 30k.
If you go on the net you will see that vehicles the same spec as mine 5 to 6 years on with 60k miles are the same price I paid for it when it was 4 months old.
Yes it was the time of the buy out with Fiat and they were brought in 07 and 08 when the Dollar was week. However its there to see. It was possible to buy almost new and in some case new, keep it for 5 to 7 years and mileage for nothing.

Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 13:33

This is all great and I don't deny it, as I've been watching JK prices forever, hoping they'd drop to a point where I could get one. I also went on some of the launch days for it, so I know how much they were initially.

But honestly, JK prices, new or used have nothing to do with Land Rovers or the vehicles the op is considering. The JK is too new to be had for £4k, so it's all a bit moot isn't it?