Suggestions - for what 4x4 if not a Defender...
Discussion
mr_tony said:
Still considering MY2000 Discos - found a couple nearby at 3k, one v8 auto and one TD Manual. The manual is shabbier and rustier in the pics, but concerned about the autobox on the V8 and the number of toys it has which probably don't work...
D2's do represent great value for money. Buy wisely and you'll likely be pleased. Although they'll probably drop a little more in value before they level off. D1's are just starting to pick up money now.The auto box on the D2 isn't really such an issue, ok they can fail, but the box isn't hugely different to what was fitted to the 1980's Range Rovers, all be it electronically controlled in the D2.
Td5 auto's can be a bit sluggish, so best drive one before committing. V8 auto's are more refined and smoother and offer slightly better performance than a manual Td5, but a mapped Td5 manual is probably pretty close. The Td5 is a very good engine, if a tad long and heavy for proper off road use. V8 manuals are rare, but will be the best to drive and more economical than an auto.
If you think you'll do plenty of road miles, then ACE (Active cornering enhancement), is very worth while. The rear air suspension will be most useful if you plan to tow or haul heavy things, else it's not really needed.
Best bet is do some research on what to look out for when buying.
In terms of models, the only real thing the D2 lacked is the centre diff lock. LR instead opted to let the TCS do the work. To be fair, it does a pretty good job, but if you plan to take it off road properly, then a centre diff lock will make a world of difference. Most years you can simply buy the linkage and connect it up (as the diff mechanism is all there), although there are a couple of years mid way through production that don't, so you'd need an entire new transfer box. I think on late models the diff lock was actually a cost option (again, it was just the lever/linkage). So some do have them, or have been retro fitted with them.
I have had a few Shoguns in the past and love them, they are reliable, comfortable, the drawback to the diesel is a lack of overtaking grunt. For your budget I wouldn't look at anything else.
Whatever you buy don't get a shogun sport, I impulse bought a 2006 sport and it is one of the most hateful vehicles ever made. On paper it seems great, good spec, leather, ac, lots of toys etc. The reality is its an ancienr pick up truck with a shiny shed on top. It is so undergeared that you are in 5th gear by the time you are doing 35mph, ride qulity and handling are awful....horrid.....horrid.....get a proper shogun and you will be super pleased. My last one got to 250,000 miles and would polish up like new having been neglected used and abused for months on end
Whatever you buy don't get a shogun sport, I impulse bought a 2006 sport and it is one of the most hateful vehicles ever made. On paper it seems great, good spec, leather, ac, lots of toys etc. The reality is its an ancienr pick up truck with a shiny shed on top. It is so undergeared that you are in 5th gear by the time you are doing 35mph, ride qulity and handling are awful....horrid.....horrid.....get a proper shogun and you will be super pleased. My last one got to 250,000 miles and would polish up like new having been neglected used and abused for months on end
The issue remains Defenders are overpriced and there simply others vehicles in better condition age etc if you look elsewhere.The whole end of production storm in a tea cup...(great marketing by LR) have over inflated this and I would predict a fall after the whole saga has worn off.
I have had my LWB Shogun Diamond for 5 years. 10 years old (Last of 2.8 built 2000) when I purchased it. Other 4x4 have come and gone in that time.
1 owner, never used it in the winter 50k miles, waxoyled from new and kept in a heated garage and serviced every 4.5k. I paid £4.5k for it then, its been spot on, still looks like a 3 year old car. What's it worth maybe 3k on good day. I would challenge you to find a defender in anything like the condition and age for 8 to 10k ish.
Never mind heated leather, 7 forward facing seats, double AC, Aibags, huge glass roof and adjustable dampers on a switch. Cruise control etc. More options on 4x4 system. All that is similar on a Disco 2 pre facelift for maybe a little more money and Td5 better on Juice than 2.8 Shogun.
Defender overpriced because its seen to be cool...when something its seen to be cool that's normally the time to runaway and start your own fashion and bag a bargain.
I have had my LWB Shogun Diamond for 5 years. 10 years old (Last of 2.8 built 2000) when I purchased it. Other 4x4 have come and gone in that time.
1 owner, never used it in the winter 50k miles, waxoyled from new and kept in a heated garage and serviced every 4.5k. I paid £4.5k for it then, its been spot on, still looks like a 3 year old car. What's it worth maybe 3k on good day. I would challenge you to find a defender in anything like the condition and age for 8 to 10k ish.
Never mind heated leather, 7 forward facing seats, double AC, Aibags, huge glass roof and adjustable dampers on a switch. Cruise control etc. More options on 4x4 system. All that is similar on a Disco 2 pre facelift for maybe a little more money and Td5 better on Juice than 2.8 Shogun.
Defender overpriced because its seen to be cool...when something its seen to be cool that's normally the time to runaway and start your own fashion and bag a bargain.
Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 20:08
As I've said, I like the defender personally, but at 5k I don't think it's a nice place to strap kids in group 1/2/3 car seats. For the money there are more pleasant experiences for small passengers that will still give the off road capability that will cover what I need..
Coming round to the idea of a Shogun or Patrol.
4.2 Patrols seem pretty rare creatures, so wondering about the later generation with the 2.8 or 3.0 engine - any thoughts on them?
Coming round to the idea of a Shogun or Patrol.
4.2 Patrols seem pretty rare creatures, so wondering about the later generation with the 2.8 or 3.0 engine - any thoughts on them?
I tried chasing a few 4.2 Patrols a few years ago but rare so hard to find a good one. I kissed a few frogs and gave up. I think the early 3.0 had issues but can't remember what, and there seemed to be a big price jump at the time on which considered lesser vehicle. However I think that was sorted a few years on after the launch of 3.0D. Same engine as the later Terrano from memory,so maybe some searching on the net might shed some light on it. I do remember as it made me chuckle that I was told the early 3.0 engines would have been better used as grenade!
Though probably not as bad Trooper 3.1d lubelooser or Shogun/L200 2.5 Headcracker I know of 7 of those between family in friends and 5 have split heads and well maintained which is not a good ratio.
Note if you go for early TD5 ask if the injector loom has been done and the plastic head locating dowels. As oil leaked into the loom. Changed on facelift. Most will have been done by now.
Though probably not as bad Trooper 3.1d lubelooser or Shogun/L200 2.5 Headcracker I know of 7 of those between family in friends and 5 have split heads and well maintained which is not a good ratio.
Note if you go for early TD5 ask if the injector loom has been done and the plastic head locating dowels. As oil leaked into the loom. Changed on facelift. Most will have been done by now.
Edited by RumRunner on Tuesday 10th November 20:52
The Nissan ZD30 does have some issues - the most common one is the injector pump tends to die around 100-120k miles, and its a pretty involved job (engine out) to remove it for replacement or reconditioning.
They do have a reputation for melting pistons as well which is where the 'hand grenade' label comes from, a mate who is a very experienced diesel mechanic told me that its usually caused by a dodgy earth on (IIRC) the MAF sensor, so a bit of preventative maintenance avoids the problem.
Not sure about the RD28T, the one I drove (SWB Safari) didn't have that much torque low down so you had to keep the revs up a bit to avoid bogging down.
The TD42 is about as bulletproof as it gets.
They do have a reputation for melting pistons as well which is where the 'hand grenade' label comes from, a mate who is a very experienced diesel mechanic told me that its usually caused by a dodgy earth on (IIRC) the MAF sensor, so a bit of preventative maintenance avoids the problem.
Not sure about the RD28T, the one I drove (SWB Safari) didn't have that much torque low down so you had to keep the revs up a bit to avoid bogging down.
The TD42 is about as bulletproof as it gets.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 11th November 09:48
yellowstreak said:
InitialDave said:
Bear in mind that a well-bought £5k Defender will probably remain a £5k Defender for quite some time.
.. but do you want to have to drive with your elbow out the window? I'd love my own defender, if the cab as about 25% larger. Basically you bought the wrong vehicle - period.
In a Defender you sit close to the window for two key reasons:
-to allow 3 seats across but retain a narrow body. Narrow is good off road.
-to sit you close to the window, so that when off road it is very easy to lean out and look at what the wheels are doing.
If you made it bigger to give more elbow room it would ruin what the vehicle is. Now here is the critical bit - Land Rover did listen. They did build a vehicle with more elbow room, but retain the Defenders off road ability. They called it a Discovery. Now if you want more room, buy one of these rather than moaning about the Defender.
mr_tony said:
For the money there are more pleasant experiences for small passengers
As I said, it's completely your choice. But I'm still baffled by this point. I have been the small child in a 110, as were most of my cousins, and have known many other families that had 110's as the primary family vehicle. They aren't at all unpleasant.300bhp/ton said:
As I said, it's completely your choice. But I'm still baffled by this point. I have been the small child in a 110, as were most of my cousins, and have known many other families that had 110's as the primary family vehicle. They aren't at all unpleasant.
I'm not saying ALL defenders are unpleasant - as I opened the thread I pointed out I rather like them. The issue for me is at the price point I want to buy (less than 5k and ideally as little as possible), I cannot find one thats comparably as nice / safe / rust free / not smelling of sheep p1ss / lacking holes in the floor / a piece of bailer twine for a door handle as I can other things, like Shoguns, Discoverys, Landcruisers etc. I suspect this is because the defender is highly prized for the image it's built up by being a great vehicle.And for the record I've tested a few discoverys now, they seem pretty solid as a driving option. The condition varies wildly at the price point. I saw 3 this morning and one was very solid in terms of bodywork, no visible external rust, all clean in the arches and the chassis looked pretty solid as did the boot floor. The second was a bit shabby with some bubbles here and there, and the 3rd looked great in the pictures but the rear arches were just paint and you could have poked your fingers through them all over the place, and the chassis had enough mud and straw on it to start a farm..
Having seen a few more, I think I've found a pretty solid 4.0 V8 Auto thats in decent nick with full history and only two owners for 2.5k. Some of the interior bells and whistles don't work (glovebox catch doest work, passenger seat electric motors are gone and the air con needs regassing, but for the money I don't think I'll argue and will get it bought.,
Might still bid on the Patrol tonight though, seller seems genuine and it's one heck of a lot of car for the money at the right price, and I like an adventure...
Having seen a few more, I think I've found a pretty solid 4.0 V8 Auto thats in decent nick with full history and only two owners for 2.5k. Some of the interior bells and whistles don't work (glovebox catch doest work, passenger seat electric motors are gone and the air con needs regassing, but for the money I don't think I'll argue and will get it bought.,
Might still bid on the Patrol tonight though, seller seems genuine and it's one heck of a lot of car for the money at the right price, and I like an adventure...
Remember the outer body panels on a Discovery are mostly Birmabirght (an aluminium alloy) and don't rust. You said rear arches, did you mean the inner arches you can see from the interior? They are steel, but the exterior body work isn't.
Re: the Defender. Yes price point will limit options. But tbh mostly age. And as a Defender has changed so little over the years, you really don't need to look at a newer one. Having a quick look on ebay, there are certainly some candidates around the £4k mark. Might not be that pretty, but if the chassis is solid, it really wouldn't take much to get them up to spec.
But again, hence why I said about the Santana. But I assume it's unfamiliarity is putting you off. As I can see no other reason to not consider one, if your logic is "want a 110, but ones I like are £10k, I only have half that".
e.g. 2007 PS10, £4,895
5 seater + big boot. Looks pretty tidy, 88,000 miles on the clock.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-Santana-PS10-van-2-...
Re: the Defender. Yes price point will limit options. But tbh mostly age. And as a Defender has changed so little over the years, you really don't need to look at a newer one. Having a quick look on ebay, there are certainly some candidates around the £4k mark. Might not be that pretty, but if the chassis is solid, it really wouldn't take much to get them up to spec.
But again, hence why I said about the Santana. But I assume it's unfamiliarity is putting you off. As I can see no other reason to not consider one, if your logic is "want a 110, but ones I like are £10k, I only have half that".
e.g. 2007 PS10, £4,895
5 seater + big boot. Looks pretty tidy, 88,000 miles on the clock.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-Santana-PS10-van-2-...
mr_tony said:
Thats considerably nicer than a 5k landy interior for sure. Not really floating my boat though when I can get a tidy v8 Disco for half that which will do what I need.
That's fine 
And you will always get a lot more Disco or Range Rover for your money. Indeed I myself have a p38a Range Rover 4.6 V8. Paid £2500 for it, and it's way nicer than any Defender.
But despite it's low price, it's just too nice to bash up off road, where as I think most people would be happy off roading a £5k Defender...
oops.
Just bought this on eBay. Couldn't resist the look of it and their 'indestructible' reputation. HPI clear, MOT until May. 4.2 Petrol Auto 109k on the clock, service history and only 4 previous owners. Would have preferred a diesel but can't wait, and frankly for the usage I'll give it the mpg doesn't really matter.
will need a bit of TLC but there are plenty of them being broken on eBay so shouldn't be an issue, but I got it for the same as I was looking at paying for a similar age Disco. Only time will tell if i've been an idiot. Having said that I've got a fairly long track record of not buying the obvious choice and it's not done me too much harm.
Pick it up Saturday.
In Scotland.
Fingers crossed it drives ok as it's a long long way home!
Just bought this on eBay. Couldn't resist the look of it and their 'indestructible' reputation. HPI clear, MOT until May. 4.2 Petrol Auto 109k on the clock, service history and only 4 previous owners. Would have preferred a diesel but can't wait, and frankly for the usage I'll give it the mpg doesn't really matter.
will need a bit of TLC but there are plenty of them being broken on eBay so shouldn't be an issue, but I got it for the same as I was looking at paying for a similar age Disco. Only time will tell if i've been an idiot. Having said that I've got a fairly long track record of not buying the obvious choice and it's not done me too much harm.
Pick it up Saturday.
In Scotland.
Fingers crossed it drives ok as it's a long long way home!
Looks good. Now if you plan to off road it, I'd advise budgeting for some MT tyres. Good MT's with sipes will run almost as well as AT's on the road and be fully capable in the snow, ice and rain. But so much better in the mud, and less damaging too, as you won't need to wheelspin it as much.
300bhp/ton said:
Yet statistically they fair rather well.
Statistics can often be abused. Is the average Defender crash comparable to the average Jaguar S Type crash? What if most Defender crashes are at 5mph and most Jag crashes are at 60mph? The table needs more information before you can draw conclusions from it across such different vehicles.
mr_tony said:
oops.
Just bought this on eBay. Couldn't resist the look of it and their 'indestructible' reputation. HPI clear, MOT until May. 4.2 Petrol Auto 109k on the clock, service history and only 4 previous owners. Would have preferred a diesel but can't wait, and frankly for the usage I'll give it the mpg doesn't really matter.
will need a bit of TLC but there are plenty of them being broken on eBay so shouldn't be an issue, but I got it for the same as I was looking at paying for a similar age Disco. Only time will tell if i've been an idiot. Having said that I've got a fairly long track record of not buying the obvious choice and it's not done me too much harm.
Pick it up Saturday.
In Scotland.
Fingers crossed it drives ok as it's a long long way home!
That looks great! Make very sure it's not rusty, otherwise they are very solid mechanically. Do post some pictures and tell us how it is once you've bought it!Just bought this on eBay. Couldn't resist the look of it and their 'indestructible' reputation. HPI clear, MOT until May. 4.2 Petrol Auto 109k on the clock, service history and only 4 previous owners. Would have preferred a diesel but can't wait, and frankly for the usage I'll give it the mpg doesn't really matter.
will need a bit of TLC but there are plenty of them being broken on eBay so shouldn't be an issue, but I got it for the same as I was looking at paying for a similar age Disco. Only time will tell if i've been an idiot. Having said that I've got a fairly long track record of not buying the obvious choice and it's not done me too much harm.
Pick it up Saturday.
In Scotland.
Fingers crossed it drives ok as it's a long long way home!
As for tyres I very much recommend the Cooper ST Maxx (if they do them in the correct size). I've owned several of the common AT tyre options (General Grabber ATs, BFG AT K/O, Goodyear Wranglers and these), tried them in most conditions and I rate the ST Maxx as the best of them all.
Gassing Station | Off Road | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff