Let's Off-Road!

[wildcat45]

balls-out said:

whereabouts are you based?

Newcastle.

[lostkiwi]

You have some excellent routes in the Lakes to choose from then.
If you want more info email me.

To find whats nearby use this:
http://www.trailwise.org.uk/gmaps/gmap.htm

Its pretty up to date (and a bit quirky to use) but as always the responsibility is on you to ensure you're using legal routes.

[DelicaL400]

If you fancy a bit more that pootling around green lanes there are plenty of offroad racing championships such as the Freelander Challenge (for, surprisingly, Freelanders) and the British Cross Country Championship, both of which race on some of the same tracks as Wales Rally GB. There are also regional championships such as the Northern Offroad one.

I know someone who got an old Freelander from a scrapyard, put a cage in it and seats, tidied it up a bit and won the championship!

[g7jtk]

wildcat45 said:

Newcastle.

Why not look us up at the Northumbria section of the discovery owners club

[wildcat45]

I will do. Cheers,

[Icehanger]

you don't necessarily need a Landy;)
About 10 years ago I had some big jaffas and decided I could some green laning in a 4x4 car...almost got stuck but blind luck in getting traction got me through lol

[Clivey]

OP: Would you consider a Discovery 2? Much better value for money than Defenders and a much better road car. More capable than the original out of the box too due to the 4-wheel traction control. They'll go pretty much anywhere a Defender will...and some places an old one won't, the limitation being the overhanging bodywork (mitigated by a modest suspension lift). If interested, www.d2bc.co.uk is the best resource IMO.

Icehanger said:

you don't necessarily need a Landy;)
About 10 years ago I had some big jaffas and decided I could some green laning in a 4x4 car...almost got stuck but blind luck in getting traction got me through lol

I've always wondered how far I could get in a normal 2WD car...something to try with one that's destined for the scrap yard with only a few days MOT remaining!

[coppice]

Years ago I had a Citroen AX GT and on 165 winters it would go almost anywhere, if not quite as off-roadable as my old 2CV which just keept on keeping on through snow , mud , ruts etc . Although sneered at by some beardy types the Panda 4x4 goes anywhere too - it seems the transport of choice for farmers in the Apennines , although the Dacia 4x4 is catching up fast .

[GravelBen]

Clivey said:

I've always wondered how far I could get in a normal 2WD car...something to try with one that's destined for the scrap yard with only a few days MOT remaining!

Depending on the terrain, it can be quite impressive how far a normal car will go when the driver doesn't care if they destroy it in the process. Especially if there is an old tank of a 4wd behind to give it a push through the trickier bits.

[larrylamb11]

Just to offer a balanced view - I am one of the people living in an area that is plagued and being systematically wrecked by the 'Let's Off-Road!' brigade.... I am not necessarily saying that brigade is YOU, or those who practice a responsible attitude to driving off-road, but it appears the majority of the Let's Off-Road hobby is being over-run by brain dead yobbos who think it is their right to try and get their £500 jacked up 4x4 banger bogged to the axles on any piece of land they can get access to.
Recreational 4-wheel driving is causing us a major headache and in our area we are actively pursuing all avenues to get TRO's on the byways, increase Police presence, pursue those illegally off-roading and collectively organise ourselves to observe, record and report any instances of 4x4s not strictly adhering to the law - that includes the offence of damaging the surface of a byway. If that is happening in our area, it will be happening in other areas too.
Be warned, you will not receive a friendly welcome from those that live in the country if you aren't both careful in the extreme and considerate beyond reproach in your choice of route and how you conduct yourself. You have to expect hostile encounters with angry locals and increased attention from the authorities if you elect to press on regardless.
I am offering you this information so that you can see it isn't all slip-sliding-around-in-the-mud fun. Those byways that get trashed by excessive 4x4 use in inappropriate conditions have to be fixed by someone. The locals who see the area they call home being damaged DO become agitated. Ignorant 'Let's Off-Road' adopters ARE becoming a modern plague and the Countryside IS mobilising to take action against it. Take the time to do the proper research and practice the hobby responsibly and you will likely have fun, but PLEASE don't buy a cheap 4x4 (usually off ebay whilst drunk), decide to go 'Off-Road' and set off into the wild ..... you WILL piss people off and more than likely break the law.

[Icehanger]

Clivey said:

I've always wondered how far I could get in a normal 2WD car...something to try with one that's destined for the scrap yard with only a few days MOT remaining!

actually that was 4wd

1.8T 4x4, funny enough Skoda actually raised the suspension on it and had a type of sump guard fitted so I thought why not lol
It was surprisingly capable and no damage as took my time, on a very muddy section that I lost all traction it was a case of just plant it and the ESP sorted out where the power was needed and it pulled itself along quite well, who says haldex 4x4's are rubbish

[Clivey]

larrylamb11 said:

Just to offer a balanced view - I am one of the people living in an area that is plagued and being systematically wrecked by the 'Let's Off-Road!' brigade.... I am not necessarily saying that brigade is YOU, or those who practice a responsible attitude to driving off-road, but it appears the majority of the Let's Off-Road hobby is being over-run by brain dead yobbos who think it is their right to try and get their £500 jacked up 4x4 banger bogged to the axles on any piece of land they can get access to.
Recreational 4-wheel driving is causing us a major headache and in our area we are actively pursuing all avenues to get TRO's on the byways, increase Police presence, pursue those illegally off-roading and collectively organise ourselves to observe, record and report any instances of 4x4s not strictly adhering to the law - that includes the offence of damaging the surface of a byway. If that is happening in our area, it will be happening in other areas too.
Be warned, you will not receive a friendly welcome from those that live in the country if you aren't both careful in the extreme and considerate beyond reproach in your choice of route and how you conduct yourself. You have to expect hostile encounters with angry locals and increased attention from the authorities if you elect to press on regardless.
I am offering you this information so that you can see it isn't all slip-sliding-around-in-the-mud fun. Those byways that get trashed by excessive 4x4 use in inappropriate conditions have to be fixed by someone. The locals who see the area they call home being damaged DO become agitated. Ignorant 'Let's Off-Road' adopters ARE becoming a modern plague and the Countryside IS mobilising to take action against it. Take the time to do the proper research and practice the hobby responsibly and you will likely have fun, but PLEASE don't buy a cheap 4x4 (usually off ebay whilst drunk), decide to go 'Off-Road' and set off into the wild ..... you WILL piss people off and more than likely break the law.

The problem is that it only tends to be the brain dead yobs that stand out. - Those of us who take some responsibility go pretty much unnoticed. I've personally never had a confrontation when out green laning but had thanks from a dog walker for tidying-up an overgrown section - didn't want to pinstripe my paint .

Actually, in some places it's only the 4x4s that stop the overgrown hedgerows etc. completely covering the lane. - There are certainly some I wouldn't want to try and walk down but would drive a 4x4 through (but not one as shiny as mine - I do plan on buying another one that I'm less concerned about).

[300bhp/ton]

wildcat45 said:

Well yes, a bit of a pipe dream but I've a few questions about off-road, green lanes etc.

I recently went on the free Land Rover Experience you get with your new car. Took a Discovery Sport like mine out under tuition and I have to say it was great fun.

I suspect quite a bit of this will have been covered already. But I hope I can add something too.

The Landy Experience days are good fun, but remember they are there to demonstrate the cars, not get them stuck. All the trails have a hard surface below them pretty much, so there is always traction. This is misleading if you ever to venture off road elsewhere.

The Disco Sport (and Freelanders) are technically capable, but they will be hard work in proper off road situations, due to not having low range, lack of ground clearance, lack of suspension articulation and poor approach and departure angles.

In proper off road situations you'll have to drive vehicles like this far harder and faster to conquer obstacles. This means not only a more aggressive style of driving, but also much higher risk of damage or getting it badly wrong.

On the flip side, such vehicles are far more capable than they first appear, but you would be better off learning the basics in something else first.

wildcat45 said:

We're planning to do another one, or similar sometime in a Defender. As a passenger I've been off roaming and my wife lived driving in the mud.

So to the pipe dream. How expensive a hobby would this be?

It doesn't have to be expensive at all. But it is a WIDE ranging hobby. So you'll need to narrow down what you want to achieve. That will dictate pricing levels.

wildcat45 said:

An old Defender 90, Or Disco with a bit of off road preparation. I know the P38 has reliability issues but would one of these be OK?

Again, it depends on the type of off roading, but it may be very little preparation will be needed. Most stock Land Rover's are very capable. So it's only tyres and recovery equipment you'll be needing. A p38a is a fine vehicle, but I'll say more in a bit.

wildcat45 said:

As for going off road, I'm thinking light stuff rather than sand ladders winches and the like.

There are extreme competitions. But the biggest thing with off roading is, if you get stuck or break down, you'll need to be able to recovery yourself. If you can't, it's much better to be with other people or in a group.

Even a mild green lane could cause problems. And the AA won't be willing to help.

wildcat45 said:

What's the law in England like? I guess you have to be very aware of where you are driving, minimise, damage to tracks and the general environment.

There are 3 main options open to most people:

-trials events. Lots of fun and will teach you how to drive off road properly

-Pay & Play sites, usually known as Prick & Prat sites. You pay to enter and can drive anywhere pretty much. They can be fun, but tbh most of them are full of utter wkers. It's a quick way to end up ruining a vehicle

-Green laning. Which is getting harder, as for some reason it's seen as anti social at the moment (although it isn't). In short, any legal unpaved road is potentially a legal place to drive. But many have restrictions on them by local authorities, so some areas there are very few. Remember a Green Lane is a road, so your vehicle has to adhere to all the same laws as a regular road would.

Laning and Prick & Prat sites probably won't teach you much about off road driving. You can pay for tuition for laning and even overland trips however.


I saw someone mention earlier, the laws in Scotland are different. You can off road still, but most likely on private land with the land owners permission. (your profile says Scotland). There are no green lanes.

wildcat45 said:

Are there places you can go and pay to drive round for fun?

Yes as said above. Although RTV off road trials are a likely better place to start out and pretty cheap too.

wildcat45 said:

Neither of us are club type people, but I guess this isn't something one does solo.

An experienced off roader with the right gear can often lane or overland on their own. But I wouldn't recommend it for a novice. As for clubs, well you don't have to do anything social other than drive. Our local Land Rover club has almost no social events, just an off road trial once a month.

wildcat45 said:

As I say, just a pipe dream/idle musing, but I'm guessing it's a minimum of 10k for a basic off road knitted Landy.

I know other 4x4s are out there but it would really have to be a Land Rover rather than a Shogun or whatever.

Honestly, the biggest reason to go Land Rover is for the club scene in the UK. They are good vehicles in their own rights, but if you don't plan to compete or do anything club related, then you'll simply get a non LR for less money that'll be just as capable for green laning.


As for which vehicle. Well this is a loaded question.


For off road use, often a smaller, rugged vehicle with the right sort of suspension and 4wd system will be best.

However, if you want to go touring and laning, i.e. down into Wales for a weekend/week long trip. Then you may also want to consider comfort, boot space, refinement, number of seats.

And also consider if you'll use it for anything else. Such as tip runs or towing.

I'll cite some extremes for you.


P38a Range Rover. These are very capable off road, they have good suspension. They are also big, so ride well, very comfy, good choice of engines and transmissions and a big boot. They will tow well too.

The downside is, while they are capable, they are also complex, so may not like being abused off road all the time and getting wet without additional TLC. The plush carpets will also be horrid if you are climbing in and out with muddy boots all the while. Plus their size can be a detriment off road, they are bulky, so in tight areas on boulders or in trees, you'll likely suffer more damage. They also have big overhangs, so again more prone to damage.


Something like a Suzuki Jimny on the other hand. Small, flighty and lightweight. Small over hangs, very nimble and suspension just as capable as a Land Rover. They are very good off road and much less likely to suffer any damage in the same way. Downside is, small back seats, tiny boot and if you have a 4 hour motorway trip, then they simply aren't a comparison to a Range Rover.



Other things you might want to consider. If you do join a club and do fancy a go competing in a trials event. Then these are regulated. So not every vehicle will be eligible. And certain mods are not allowed. Also different types of vehicles will simply be less suited to trialling. For example, a p38a Range Rover, while a capable machine off road, you'd find it too big to be competitive at an RTV vs someone driving a standard Series 3 88" Land Rover.


Parts and upgrades. It's also worth considering the price and availability of spares, off roading by it's very nature can result in things breaking. Being able to easily buy the bits you need can be important. And also the choice of upgrade parts. Some 4x4's have very small or no aftermarket, while others have a vast array of upgrades. Which can be useful the more serious you get.


Only you can decide what route you want to take. For mild green lane use, pretty much any 'proper' 4x4 will be fine with some reasonable tyres, a tow rope and some good recovery points. Even a Freelander 1 (with TCS) can be pretty good for this. And they can be had for shed money.


The Jimny is also a brilliant off road machine. The size of a Series One Land Rover, but with Defender like suspension and built better.

The Vitara (older models) can be quite good too, more road friendly but the IFS (independent front suspension) makes them 2nd place to the Jimny IMO.


Land Rovers. The Series 3 is fully capable right out of the box. Although a hardcore choice if you plan any long trips. Disco's are a good bet, but they are bigger vehicles.


Jeeps. These are very much like Land Rovers if truth be told. Most very capable. The Wrangler is pretty equal to the Defender, but also hold their money well. The best value is probably the Cherokee XJ. Not much bigger than a Defender 90, but same seating and boot as a Discovery on the inside pretty much. Very capable machines. The Grand Cherokee is simply a comfort notch up and tad bigger, more RR/Disco sized. The only thing the Jeeps need is a mild lift kit, as they all ride lower than their LR counter parts (UK market). But this is a cheap upgrade for the most part. And you can buy some Jeeps very cheap.


There are lots of other Jap trucks. Some very good, some less so. Most have less off roady suspension than a Jeep or Land Rover. But for mild laning should be fine. Aftermarket can be niche for some too, although some have a good aftermarket.

[300bhp/ton]

larrylamb11 said:

Just to offer a balanced view - I am one of the people living in an area that is plagued and being systematically wrecked by the 'Let's Off-Road!' brigade.... I am not necessarily saying that brigade is YOU, or those who practice a responsible attitude to driving off-road, but it appears the majority of the Let's Off-Road hobby is being over-run by brain dead yobbos who think it is their right to try and get their £500 jacked up 4x4 banger bogged to the axles on any piece of land they can get access to.
Recreational 4-wheel driving is causing us a major headache and in our area we are actively pursuing all avenues to get TRO's on the byways, increase Police presence, pursue those illegally off-roading and collectively organise ourselves to observe, record and report any instances of 4x4s not strictly adhering to the law - that includes the offence of damaging the surface of a byway. If that is happening in our area, it will be happening in other areas too.

There will always be those that ruin it for others. That's life, that hardly means the sensible thing is to blame every one and penalise every single person. In fact that's a stupid point of view.

And the reality is, a lot of what happens is often other things. Such as the ground being poached by horses or farm animals. Tractors and/or forestry vehicles.

And lets not forget a few simple things too.

• it's an unpaved road. How are you meant to drive down it and not potentially change the ground? If you want a vehicle to go past and leave no tracks --- you pave the road. But then it isn't a green lane. Believing that tracks and ruts shouldn't appear is an idiots point of view.

• walking or riding a push bike over the same terrain can cause "damage" and mud too, but always gets ignored by the anti brigade.

• There is nearly always a way past for a walker if they want. Or the track would be just as muddy if no vehicles had driven down it, ok you might not see it, until you walk on it, but would be.

• Lots of lanes get closed to vehicles because of the perceived damage. Lane closes and then no bugger ever walks down it either, so it gets overgrown. That really is a symptom of complete fk head locals simply crying "not in my back yard". When the truth is, it was never actually affecting them in the slightest.

And for the record, my family are farmers and land owners. So I've seen and experience all sides of it first hand!

larrylamb11 said:

Be warned, you will not receive a friendly welcome from those that live in the country if you aren't both careful in the extreme and considerate beyond reproach in your choice of route and how you conduct yourself.

The thing is, this is bks, you shouldn't need to have to behave like this. Some 'locals' are the problem and biggest morons going, with some kind of power quest.

larrylamb11 said:

Those byways that get trashed by excessive 4x4 use in inappropriate conditions have to be fixed by someone.

Fixed??? Why, what is broken with them. Really this kind of attitude is the complete and utter pits of society.

larrylamb11 said:

The locals who see the area they call home being damaged DO become agitated. Ignorant 'Let's Off-Road' adopters ARE becoming a modern plague and the Countryside IS mobilising to take action against it. Take the time to do the proper research and practice the hobby responsibly and you will likely have fun, but PLEASE don't buy a cheap 4x4 (usually off ebay whilst drunk), decide to go 'Off-Road' and set off into the wild ..... you WILL piss people off and more than likely break the law.

It isn't damaged, you are just being 100% selfish.

[Clivey]

Have to agree with 300 here.

[wildcat45]

Thank you for those detailed responses.

I think it's probably beyond my capabilities now I know more about it thanks to the great info you have all supplied.

[Alex@POD]

wildcat45 said:

Thank you for those detailed responses.

I think it's probably beyond my capabilities now I know more about it thanks to the great info you have all supplied.

Beyond what capabilities? Capabilities as a driver? Don't be daft. I knew a guy who would let his 16yo daughter have a go in the trials.

[300bhp/ton]

wildcat45 said:

Thank you for those detailed responses.

I think it's probably beyond my capabilities now I know more about it thanks to the great info you have all supplied.

I don't think it's beyond your capabilities.

You could get something suitable for £600-1500 I would think, depending exactly on what you wanted to do. There are lots and lots of clubs about. So very easy to go and have a go at something. Even tagging on to an organised laning trip.

[Clivey]

wildcat45 said:

I think it's probably beyond my capabilities now I know more about it thanks to the great info you have all supplied.

What makes you say that? I was more-or-less a complete beginner to off-road driving until a couple of years ago.

Icehanger said:

actually that was 4wd

1.8T 4x4, funny enough Skoda actually raised the suspension on it and had a type of sump guard fitted so I thought why not lol
It was surprisingly capable and no damage as took my time, on a very muddy section that I lost all traction it was a case of just plant it and the ESP sorted out where the power was needed and it pulled itself along quite well, who says haldex 4x4's are rubbish

Haldex is much, much better for light duty off-roaders (like the Disco Sport the OP has) than in anything with "performance car" pretensions IMO. - At least the traction control element will allow the new Haldex-equipped LR products to progress with only one tyre having traction.

[powerstroke]

larrylamb11 said:

Just to offer a balanced view - I am one of the people living in an area that is plagued and being systematically wrecked by the 'Let's Off-Road!' brigade.... I am not necessarily saying that brigade is YOU, or those who practice a responsible attitude to driving off-road, but it appears the majority of the Let's Off-Road hobby is being over-run by brain dead yobbos who think it is their right to try and get their £500 jacked up 4x4 banger bogged to the axles on any piece of land they can get access to.
Recreational 4-wheel driving is causing us a major headache and in our area we are actively pursuing all avenues to get TRO's on the byways, increase Police presence, pursue those illegally off-roading and collectively organise ourselves to observe, record and report any instances of 4x4s not strictly adhering to the law - that includes the offence of damaging the surface of a byway. If that is happening in our area, it will be happening in other areas too.
Be warned, you will not receive a friendly welcome from those that live in the country if you aren't both careful in the extreme and considerate beyond reproach in your choice of route and how you conduct yourself. You have to expect hostile encounters with angry locals and increased attention from the authorities if you elect to press on regardless.
I am offering you this information so that you can see it isn't all slip-sliding-around-in-the-mud fun. Those byways that get trashed by excessive 4x4 use in inappropriate conditions have to be fixed by someone. The locals who see the area they call home being damaged DO become agitated. Ignorant 'Let's Off-Road' adopters ARE becoming a modern plague and the Countryside IS mobilising to take action against it. Take the time to do the proper research and practice the hobby responsibly and you will likely have fun, but PLEASE don't buy a cheap 4x4 (usually off ebay whilst drunk), decide to go 'Off-Road' and set off into the wild ..... you WILL piss people off and more than likely break the law.

Think and don't be selfish sadly there are idiots on both sides brain dead in a disco or a mong with an audi and pointy shoes that thinks the countryside is a sterile picture post card when he buys a cottage in the country next to a byway , the clubs keep a lid on things both the 2 and 4 wheel motorised users the more lanes the nimbys close the closer it come to no number plates and non legal bikes and 4x4 not giving a st , OH ANDMOTORISED USERS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO PAY to maintain what they use and have a tiny mileage of unsurfaced rights of way compared with cyclists and walkers who do huge damage to fragile trails costing the taxpayer large sums...
to repair

Edited by powerstroke on Friday 13th November 22:16