JLR when did the reliability rot set in, Will it stop?
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
skyrover said:
why does a toyota land cruiser do so much better than?
But does it?I'm not saying it doesn't. But I couldn't find a list of specific vehicles and scores.
And remember, these scores are 'satisfaction'. Not reliability.
i had 8 classic range rovers- including an softdash, CSK, an overfinch and some more boring versions
I've also had an 80 series landcruiser, at the same time.
The difference between them was frankly astonishing in terms of build quality- every single one of those RaRos had rust- EVERY single one. They all had siezed bolts, they all had faults, things frequently failed.
The 80 (a 94 vehicle- so the same vintage), had one siezed bolt that i found, a drivetrain that was unbreakable, an engine that was unstoppable, was a joy to work on, and was made from a higher quality of materials (as a specific example ALL the bolts on the 80 series are fine thread double passivated- that's what they dont rust in place, as another the air inlet for the heater has its own snorkel system, as another- rust is unusual, you do find it, but it is not common- i had one panel with rust around a bolt head- it was not serious and easily fixed! Another example- the headlinings never sag, another, the upper rear boot lids don't need replacing frequently- another, all the body work in an 80 is galvanised, another- the chassis is made from 4mm steel not 2.5mm like a range rover- another the 80 has diff locks front and rear with a drivetrain that can run 35" tyres, in competition out of the box, with minimal chance of breakeage)
I remain a lover of land rover products, but the difference between an 80 series and similar range rover is night and day, to my ever lasting regret. I refused to believe this until i bought one! Like al things 80 series have faults, but they are not common0 the best known are big end bearings, cost £45 for new bearings, takes 3 hours- never have to think about it again
PugwasHDJ80 said:
300bhp/ton said:
skyrover said:
why does a toyota land cruiser do so much better than?
But does it?I'm not saying it doesn't. But I couldn't find a list of specific vehicles and scores.
And remember, these scores are 'satisfaction'. Not reliability.
i had 8 classic range rovers- including an softdash, CSK, an overfinch and some more boring versions
I've also had an 80 series landcruiser, at the same time.
The difference between them was frankly astonishing in terms of build quality- every single one of those RaRos had rust- EVERY single one. They all had siezed bolts, they all had faults, things frequently failed.
Interesting to consider how many run old mx5s as track cars. Mine is 27yrs old and at over 150k. Mostly original and thrashed at 5-7k revs for longer periods than all other track cars, 10 times a year. water pump failed 2 yrs ago. (original) coolant pipes and rad changed as preventative measures. Clearly this is normal when you observe what cars people use. It's sad that for all our incredible engineering we didn't match that in manufacturing.
CABC said:
slight thread drift to talk of mx5s, but in the context of Japanese manufacturing.
Interesting to consider how many run old mx5s as track cars. Mine is 27yrs old and at over 150k. Mostly original and thrashed at 5-7k revs for longer periods than all other track cars, 10 times a year. water pump failed 2 yrs ago. (original) coolant pipes and rad changed as preventative measures. Clearly this is normal when you observe what cars people use. It's sad that for all our incredible engineering we didn't match that in manufacturing.
I honestly think it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with Jap cars.Interesting to consider how many run old mx5s as track cars. Mine is 27yrs old and at over 150k. Mostly original and thrashed at 5-7k revs for longer periods than all other track cars, 10 times a year. water pump failed 2 yrs ago. (original) coolant pipes and rad changed as preventative measures. Clearly this is normal when you observe what cars people use. It's sad that for all our incredible engineering we didn't match that in manufacturing.
We've had Nissans, Toyota's, Subaru's and others, even a Honda or two. Some have been good, some not.
For instance my Impreza has had to have a full engine rebuild before 100k miles. And it's so common there is an entire industry of firms doing this for Subaru's.
I think a lot of it is about misplaced perception. For example... A good number of Honda's were once built by Rover at the Rover factory... yet people will still tell you how good, reliable and well built those Honda's are, while the Rover's aren't....
300bhp/ton said:
I honestly think it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with Jap cars.
We've had Nissans, Toyota's, Subaru's and others, even a Honda or two. Some have been good, some not.
For instance my Impreza has had to have a full engine rebuild before 100k miles. And it's so common there is an entire industry of firms doing this for Subaru's.
I think a lot of it is about misplaced perception. For example... A good number of Honda's were once built by Rover at the Rover factory... yet people will still tell you how good, reliable and well built those Honda's are, while the Rover's aren't....
it's not that UK cant manufacture, i think the problems were industry specific bad management/unions and old entrenched attitudes.We've had Nissans, Toyota's, Subaru's and others, even a Honda or two. Some have been good, some not.
For instance my Impreza has had to have a full engine rebuild before 100k miles. And it's so common there is an entire industry of firms doing this for Subaru's.
I think a lot of it is about misplaced perception. For example... A good number of Honda's were once built by Rover at the Rover factory... yet people will still tell you how good, reliable and well built those Honda's are, while the Rover's aren't....
All the new uk car plants make exceptional quality: Honda obviously, Toyota cars & engines, Nissan. Clean sheet of paper, best practice and investment...
Btw, i think Suburu is niche! maybe why some like them so much.
NeMiSiS said:
When a large percentage of the work force is temporary/agency staff who don't know whether they are in employment from one week to the next, then build issues will increase.
Agency staff are not trained to the same level as permanent workers, they also often fill in for absenteeism so they flit from process to process never getting time to learn all the key points of the station, even to the point were they will be thrown into an inspection area after being given 20 mins training from a section leader, then left to sink or swim...
A Japanese car worker is a different kind of person, he takes pride in his work, he will be secure in his job and actually wants to do well for the company, he sees his employer as the people who improve his and his families quality of life, and he appreciates it.
Would you take pride in your work if on Friday morning your section leader lets you know that your services will not be required after today? You still have 200 units to produce on that last shift, pride and care in your quality of work goes out the window, and this goes for each of the Xamount of workers finished up on that day. An unfair and sad way to run a business, and at the end of the day it shows.
What about Honda UK, Toyota UK and Nissan uk , I think its more about the old british our products are good Lalala I'm not listening when something better or more reliable comes along as a competitor sAgency staff are not trained to the same level as permanent workers, they also often fill in for absenteeism so they flit from process to process never getting time to learn all the key points of the station, even to the point were they will be thrown into an inspection area after being given 20 mins training from a section leader, then left to sink or swim...
A Japanese car worker is a different kind of person, he takes pride in his work, he will be secure in his job and actually wants to do well for the company, he sees his employer as the people who improve his and his families quality of life, and he appreciates it.
Would you take pride in your work if on Friday morning your section leader lets you know that your services will not be required after today? You still have 200 units to produce on that last shift, pride and care in your quality of work goes out the window, and this goes for each of the Xamount of workers finished up on that day. An unfair and sad way to run a business, and at the end of the day it shows.
t that has had such a negative affect on us....NeMiSiS said:
When a large percentage of the work force is temporary/agency staff who don't know whether they are in employment from one week to the next, then build issues will increase.
Agency staff are not trained to the same level as permanent workers, they also often fill in for absenteeism so they flit from process to process never getting time to learn all the key points of the station, even to the point were they will be thrown into an inspection area after being given 20 mins training from a section leader, then left to sink or swim...
A Japanese car worker is a different kind of person, he takes pride in his work, he will be secure in his job and actually wants to do well for the company, he sees his employer as the people who improve his and his families quality of life, and he appreciates it.
Would you take pride in your work if on Friday morning your section leader lets you know that your services will not be required after today? You still have 200 units to produce on that last shift, pride and care in your quality of work goes out the window, and this goes for each of the Xamount of workers finished up on that day. An unfair and sad way to run a business, and at the end of the day it shows.
How many of the workforce are not permanent employees (as a percentage)?Agency staff are not trained to the same level as permanent workers, they also often fill in for absenteeism so they flit from process to process never getting time to learn all the key points of the station, even to the point were they will be thrown into an inspection area after being given 20 mins training from a section leader, then left to sink or swim...
A Japanese car worker is a different kind of person, he takes pride in his work, he will be secure in his job and actually wants to do well for the company, he sees his employer as the people who improve his and his families quality of life, and he appreciates it.
Would you take pride in your work if on Friday morning your section leader lets you know that your services will not be required after today? You still have 200 units to produce on that last shift, pride and care in your quality of work goes out the window, and this goes for each of the Xamount of workers finished up on that day. An unfair and sad way to run a business, and at the end of the day it shows.
Wollemi said:
My Disco 4 is 6 years old and done 55k miles and the only non-consumables bill has been for brake pipes which got corroded from driving through lots of mud. It's driving better than ever now, and certainly much more reliable than my BMW M3 (e46) which let me down fairly frequently.
People were raving about how good the D3 was when they were 5/6 years old with low miles. Not so much now. Loads of known issues. Interested in the OP's comment about rust on the latest Disco Sport. Wheres the source of this info? I know D3s are starting to rust now and they will be written off pretty quickly as not many people will have a four poster lift to do a chassis swap in their garage!
JLR have been making a mess of it for years and will continue to do so. Latest RR had a factory recall for a rook that leaked and that was in 2013.
bakerstreet said:
People were raving about how good the D3 was when they were 5/6 years old with low miles. Not so much now. Loads of known issues.
And they still rave how good they are. They don't have any more issues than any other comparable car. Just go on any BMW, Merc, Nissan or whoever forum...techguyone said:
Idly wondering when Land rover products started becoming so dodgy, was looking with interest at the new disco sport hoping that the rot had stopped, but looking at various forums, its clearly still the case.
Is it me, or does anyone else think that a vehicle that cost as much as a JLR product should be pretty much perfect?
After the Japanese have been doing it for years at much lower cost.
Damned annoying, on paper (cost aside) the products look fantastic, decent space,awesome off road ability, useful tech, sublime comfort, all for naught if the bloody thing only works when it feels like it.
I am going to regret saying this, but in my experience they are usually most unreliable when new. Once you've had the second or third snagging list addressed they tend to get better and by 2-3 years old they are just slightly unreliable as opposed to extremely unreliable. My current L322 is 5 years old and nothing has broken for several months.Is it me, or does anyone else think that a vehicle that cost as much as a JLR product should be pretty much perfect?
After the Japanese have been doing it for years at much lower cost.
Damned annoying, on paper (cost aside) the products look fantastic, decent space,awesome off road ability, useful tech, sublime comfort, all for naught if the bloody thing only works when it feels like it.
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