What Proper 4x4 for mud/snow/ICE?
Discussion
Proper 4x4s on all-terrain M/S tyres are great in deep snow (i.e. measured in feet rather than cm) but they are awful on packed snow, slush and ice which is what we usually see on the roads in Southern England. I would personally get a set of winter tyres for whatever you already drive and either:
A: Sort out your driveway
B: Leave the car at the end of the driveway and walk to it
C: Get a £600 Jimny to drive to the end of your driveway where you leave your proper car
If you just want to drive a 4x4 because you like them then great but if not it seems daft to drive one just because you have a muddy driveway. Driving a 4x4 up and down that all winter will make it look like the Somme fairly quickly too.
A: Sort out your driveway
B: Leave the car at the end of the driveway and walk to it
C: Get a £600 Jimny to drive to the end of your driveway where you leave your proper car
If you just want to drive a 4x4 because you like them then great but if not it seems daft to drive one just because you have a muddy driveway. Driving a 4x4 up and down that all winter will make it look like the Somme fairly quickly too.
I bought a Subaru legacy outback a few years back on impulse as a run around and I got it a few weeks before it snowed hard. I was really amazed at how capable it was. The VDC system was quite incredible. I pulled the fuse for fun to see what difference it made and it would spin and get stuck without it. Put the fuse back in and the wizardry worked to pull it out of anything I get into and up any snow covered slope I could find.
It also had really good ground clearance and was very well built.
It also had really good ground clearance and was very well built.
clunkbox said:
Whatever you get, get something that will happily drive all four wheels on dry tarmac (or can switch without slowing/stopping). I drive a crew cab pickup which shouldn't be driven on dry tarmac in 4HI, so you end up staying in RWD on snowy roads with mixed conditions, which kind of defeats the point of having a 4x4 for driving on snowy roads.
What like a L200 with 'Super Select 4wd' that will let you switch between 2 and 4wd on the fly?Mitsubishi said:
Using the drive mode selector dial, you can switch between 2WD (2H), and 4WD (4H,4HLc) with shift-on-the-fly convenience at up to 62mph. When the going gets rough,lock the centre differential by entering the 4HLc setting for rugged terrain or the 4LLc setting for inclines, mud and snow.
Mammasaid said:
What like a L200 with 'Super Select 4wd' that will let you switch between 2 and 4wd on the fly?
Yeah that sort of thing. In the older ford rangers you have to drop to a very low speed (<15 mph or kph, I think), and need to already have stopped and engaged the front hubs to go between 4HI and 4LO.clunkbox said:
Mammasaid said:
What like a L200 with 'Super Select 4wd' that will let you switch between 2 and 4wd on the fly?
Yeah that sort of thing. In the older ford rangers you have to drop to a very low speed (<15 mph or kph, I think), and need to already have stopped and engaged the front hubs to go between 4HI and 4LO.Mammasaid said:
What like a L200 with 'Super Select 4wd' that will let you switch between 2 and 4wd on the fly?
My Nissan Terrano has a similar system to that, its quite handy and seems to work well. Being from the mid 90s it has a much less shiny selection dial though! Mitsubishi said:
Using the drive mode selector dial, you can switch between 2WD (2H), and 4WD (4H,4HLc) with shift-on-the-fly convenience at up to 62mph. When the going gets rough,lock the centre differential by entering the 4HLc setting for rugged terrain or the 4LLc setting for inclines, mud and snow.
CaptainSlow said:
Why are you talking about ground clearance and suspension?
Because it's hugely important in snow driving.Deep snow means you'll just ground out in a low slung car.
And in snow it is very common to find a road blocked by other cars, often abandoned. So the need and ability to mount the verge, bank or drive onto the edge of a field might be paramount.
Not too mention when everything is snow covered it can also be very difficult to see the edge of the road and items hidden under the snow.
Oh yeah, did you choose to ignore the ops photo of his muddy, rutted driveway?
CaptainSlow said:
We're talking about on road driving. In addition that Impreza is a turbo model
You'll have to explain to me how it being a turbo model makes it less viable in your comparison, here have another rolleyes CaptainSlow said:
, I'm talking about the N/A models.
Do you honestly think a non Turbo Impreza uses a better or different AWD system??CaptainSlow said:
Also, how many Landies can be bought for under £3.5k and be expected to start in the morning?
Why be a dick?300bhp/ton said:
Do you honestly think a non Turbo Impreza uses a better or different AWD system??
Different and in this situation better, maybe you can look into it.300bhp/ton said:
You'll have to explain to me how it being a turbo model makes it less viable in your comparison, here have another rolleyes
See above.300bhp/ton said:
Why be a dick?
The question still stands, what do you get for £3.5k in Landy world? Nothing that will be as reliable as a Subaru.GravelBen said:
Incorrect on that one - a Freelander has about the same clearance as a Forester or Outback,
To be fair, I was referencing against an Impreza, as that is what CaptainSlow was claiming was so superior to Land Rovers.Some Forresters do have fairly good clearance, although I think the Freelander tops it still. Plus the Freelander is very well tucked up underneath, with very little hanging down. Legacy's certainly have less 'real world' clearance. And the large overhangs mean climbing up a verge would be a lot more challenging.
GravelBen said:
and many of the Subarus do have rear LSD and traction control as well.
I believe UK classics have an LSD rear, I assume the n/a models do too, but I don't know for sure. I would expect a Forrester to be similar.And newer ones might have traction control, although I don't know when that was introduced. I suspect most/all in the ops budget do not.
GravelBen said:
Does the Freelander have a proper full-time (or lockable centre) 4wd system, or is it just an on-demand setup that waits for the front wheels to spin before engaging the rear?
It's a little bit of both. It's not quite a Haldex, but it is primarily FWD until it needs AWD. However it will be transmitting some power to the rear all the time. And I think can attain 50:50 split or there abouts.In practice it works very and the Freelander has proven itself a very capable off road machine when equipped with traction control. On terrain such as sand, snow or wet grass, they will typically out perform a traditional Defender (assuming a non TCS variant). Provided it is on suitable tyres.
GravelBen said:
There is always some debate over whether TC systems are any good in loose snow anyway - some systems are more of a hindrance than a help as you lose momentum when they cut power or brake wheels, and in those situations you can get further with it turned off.
You see, this is the big distinction. In the Freelander it is an off road biased TCS and it won't kill or cut the throttle at all. In fact the TCS works by promoting throttle, to load the spinning wheel with the ABS and thus send power to the opposite wheel.It sort of simulates a diff locker or LSD in practice. And is the same system used on the current Disco4.
GravelBen said:
O/T, some of the more special Imprezas had LSD front and rear as well as a manually lockable centre (DCCD), but being the rally homologation versions they're a bit lower. Great drivetrain though. 
Sadly not for the UK market. The P1 is as close as we got to a WRX STI in the classic shape and that has the DCCD removed. Not sure if the 22B did or not. But very rare, very low numbers and silly money.Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 2nd August 10:06
There are still a good number of JDM imports however that would have the DCCD. Although I suspect not many have a front LSD.
I'm not knocking the Impreza or any Subaru, being that I'm a current Impreza owner. And we've had a Legacy in the past and a best friend also has an Impreza.
On some good winter tyres, they would make for a fairly capable winter car. But if you are out in the sticks or may need additional ground clearance. There are simply better 4x4 offerings for that kind of use.
Mammasaid said:
clunkbox said:
Whatever you get, get something that will happily drive all four wheels on dry tarmac (or can switch without slowing/stopping). I drive a crew cab pickup which shouldn't be driven on dry tarmac in 4HI, so you end up staying in RWD on snowy roads with mixed conditions, which kind of defeats the point of having a 4x4 for driving on snowy roads.
What like a L200 with 'Super Select 4wd' that will let you switch between 2 and 4wd on the fly?Mitsubishi said:
Using the drive mode selector dial, you can switch between 2WD (2H), and 4WD (4H,4HLc) with shift-on-the-fly convenience at up to 62mph. When the going gets rough,lock the centre differential by entering the 4HLc setting for rugged terrain or the 4LLc setting for inclines, mud and snow.
But essentially you want something with a centre differential or an on demand setup.
A traditional 4x4 such as a Jeep Wrangler, Series Land Rovers and most Jap trucks, including the Jimny and most/all Vitara's all have a conventional 4wd system. Which is 2wd and the ability to lock in the front driveshaft for 4wd.
Meaning both the front and rear wheels spin at the same time.
Off road this is fine, as the wheels can slip when cornering. And on completely snow covered roads it's also fine. But on tarmac and especially dry tarmac it prevents the front and rear wheels rotating at different speeds. This means it can make them difficult to turn at lower speed, can cause lots of understeer, winds the transmission up and ultimately can break diffs, half shafts and gearboxes.
Something like a Land Rover Defender has a centre differential. This means it can still be 4wd on the road, but will allow the front and rear wheels to have the ability to spin at different speeds. You can 'lock' the centre diff and this will give the same result as selecting 4wd on a traditional setup, i.e. locking the front and rear outs of the transfer box and making the front and rear wheels rotate at the same speed.
Some 4x4's like most Range Rover's (pre Jag engine ones) and most Subaru's use a viscous limited slip coupling as the centre diff. So they too can allow for different wheel speeds front and rear, but while retaining the ability to send power to both axles all the time.
The advantages here are. In slush or partially covered roads, where you keep running from snow, to ice to tarmac. You can safely leave them to their own devices and they will be 4wd.
Most Jeeps and Jap trucks will require you to run in 2wd in those conditions, because using the 4wd could cause damage when you are not on a slippery surface.
Arguably for road work in the UK and the type of snowy and icy conditions we get. You want something that can offer full time 4wd rather than part time 4wd.
My Cherokee I posted earlier, it had a centre diff, but also the ability to run in 2wd. Even in the dry it could get pretty lairy in 2wd and you could easily step the back out. Put it in 4wd with the diff open and it was much more stable and deployable and would never try and swap ends on you.
Vehicles like the X-Trail and Freelander are different again. However from the drivers seat they will be seamless in their operation. And should generally retain good traction, assuming the tyres are up to it.
CaptainSlow said:
Different and in this situation better, maybe you can look into it.
So basically as you are refusing to answer the question, you have no clue, right? 
Come on, please explain, not only to me, but all others here. How the drivetrain for a n/a Impreza varies from it's Turbo counter part. And how it makes it 'better' for snow use?
CaptainSlow said:
300bhp/ton said:
Why be a dick?
The question still stands, what do you get for £3.5k in Landy world? Nothing that will be as reliable as a Subaru.These are my current Land Rover's. Both cost less than £3.5k to buy.
Disco1's, Disco2's, classic RR's, p38's, Series and maybe even a somewhat ratty 90 are all in budget.
They might not be fault free and might have 'niggles'. But as a rule the oily bits are all dependable and they are usually the sort of vehicle to get you home.
Have you ever actually owned one?
BTW, this is my Impreza.
It's a tidy, low to moderate mileage, low past owner car. Which has for much of it's life been main dealer maintained.
It's cost a fortune in repairs.
-new clutch
-new ENGINE!!!!!
-new rad
-All the brake callipers have seized. Resulting in pretty much new everything
-wheel bearing failures
-hub replacement
-central locking and door trim issues
-peeling laquer
-refurbished wheels
-new MAF
And so on.
300bhp/ton said:
CaptainSlow said:
Different and in this situation better, maybe you can look into it.
So basically as you are refusing to answer the question, you have no clue, right? Come on, please explain, not only to me, but all others here. How the drivetrain for a n/a Impreza varies from it's Turbo counter part. And how it makes it 'better' for snow use?
As for the repairs are pretty common for an car except the new engine. Not many N/A Subarus have needed a new engine, indeed not many of the 2.0 turbos have either. Subaru didn't score highly on the JD Power surveys for nothing. Claiming that Landies are more reliable than Subarus is laughable.
Edited by CaptainSlow on Tuesday 2nd August 11:54
Off to look at a freelander tonight!
How about the Shogun Pinin? Looks to be a decent smaller 5 door 4x4, in the pics I think I can see a 4wd selector/high/low knob?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
How about the Shogun Pinin? Looks to be a decent smaller 5 door 4x4, in the pics I think I can see a 4wd selector/high/low knob?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
sidekickdmr said:
Off to look at a freelander tonight!
How about the Shogun Pinin? Looks to be a decent smaller 5 door 4x4, in the pics I think I can see a 4wd selector/high/low knob?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Check some reviews on the Pinin, I briefly contemplated one a while back as a stop-gap but was warned off it, I believe they have some significant issues now that they're a bit older, apologies but I can't remember what those were.How about the Shogun Pinin? Looks to be a decent smaller 5 door 4x4, in the pics I think I can see a 4wd selector/high/low knob?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
They're also 2 (3) door and I believe very small in the back?
sidekickdmr said:
No they do a 5 door version, its rarer than the 3 door but there is a few about.
Check the link I posted
I'll have a google of the issues now, thanks
Well you live and learn! Genuinely never seen a 5 door. I guess on paper that certainly looks to fit your requirements.Check the link I posted
I'll have a google of the issues now, thanks
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