How do you get "into" off roading?
Discussion
So, I've been on a few experience days and really enjoyed off roading. I'm sure that, like most experience centres, it is a watered down version and there is much more fun to be had out in the wild.
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
you don't NEED to add anything to proper 4x4.
you will be amazed how much a standard disco will do.
decent tyres are the first step
the majority of green lanes can be tackled without anything more. Just beware if the going gets too muddy. vehicle winches are expensive so a mate and I got a tirfor winch (manual) for when we got too ambitious.
I am in Surrey. I only found one convenient pay and play. Plenty of green lanes, but they were reducing in number all the time. One the reasons I sold the disco.
A standard Classic is pretty capable too. This was soft dash Vogue, I guess it would have been worth something if I'd kept and looked after it.
A lift kit is sometimes misunderstood. The lowest part will be the axles, so they only point of a lift kit is so you can get bigger wheels/tyres without fouling the wheel arches.
if you get a disco 2 with a GOOD road front bumper, then I'd recommend taking it off and selling it and then you buy a steel one with the funds raised. If you leave it on, it won't last long and the isn't worth anything. Guess how I know....
you will be amazed how much a standard disco will do.
decent tyres are the first step
the majority of green lanes can be tackled without anything more. Just beware if the going gets too muddy. vehicle winches are expensive so a mate and I got a tirfor winch (manual) for when we got too ambitious.
I am in Surrey. I only found one convenient pay and play. Plenty of green lanes, but they were reducing in number all the time. One the reasons I sold the disco.
A standard Classic is pretty capable too. This was soft dash Vogue, I guess it would have been worth something if I'd kept and looked after it.
A lift kit is sometimes misunderstood. The lowest part will be the axles, so they only point of a lift kit is so you can get bigger wheels/tyres without fouling the wheel arches.
if you get a disco 2 with a GOOD road front bumper, then I'd recommend taking it off and selling it and then you buy a steel one with the funds raised. If you leave it on, it won't last long and the isn't worth anything. Guess how I know....
Edited by OverSteery on Thursday 4th August 16:19
James Drake said:
Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
If a green lane is muddy or rutted enough that you need anything more than a totally standard vehicle to go down it, then you shouldn't be using it anyway, because you'll just be making the damage worse.If you're using private sites, then what you need is entirely down to how gung-ho you're feeling. You can have a happy potter about the easy bits on road tyres, or you can get a full-fat trials special stuck solid.
Top tips, thanks for that!
Ironically having looked at several examples, it seems like it is cheaper to buy a (slightly battered) but read-to-go off road Disco than it is to buy a bog standard one... I guess that's because the bog standard ones for sale have been looked after well.
Just for clarity, are you saying that there are not many pay and play sites that are worth the money or that there just aren't any pay and play sites?!
JD
Ironically having looked at several examples, it seems like it is cheaper to buy a (slightly battered) but read-to-go off road Disco than it is to buy a bog standard one... I guess that's because the bog standard ones for sale have been looked after well.
Just for clarity, are you saying that there are not many pay and play sites that are worth the money or that there just aren't any pay and play sites?!
JD
I was asking myself the same questions a month or so ago. This is what happened to me: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
James Drake said:
Oh god. Now I want need a Jimny...
That's actually a very good idea. My limited experience of taking large 4x4s (Landcruiser HDJ80s) to pay and play sites is that they are very capable but you'll constantly be bashing bits of them into the ground due to the rear overhang and long wheelbase. Also when you get a full size Landcruiser on proper tyres stuck it's really stuck and something of a challenge to pull out again.If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
I'm in a similar boat to the OP in that I've done a few of the official Land Rover off road training days and I'm looking to pick up my own to go on pay to play sites to start with. I want to stick to the better ran pay to play sites to begin with as I know if I get stuck there will be somebody to help me get unstuck.
I also want to pick up somebody else's project car, something with all the difficult/expensive stuff already done especially a bob tail or similar conversion as it'll work out cheaper in the end than doing everything myself piecemeal. Obviously you need to put effort in to make sure they have done the work properly and that the car is in a good state of repair.
I also want to pick up somebody else's project car, something with all the difficult/expensive stuff already done especially a bob tail or similar conversion as it'll work out cheaper in the end than doing everything myself piecemeal. Obviously you need to put effort in to make sure they have done the work properly and that the car is in a good state of repair.
TurboHatchback said:
That's actually a very good idea. My limited experience of taking large 4x4s (Landcruiser HDJ80s) to pay and play sites is that they are very capable but you'll constantly be bashing bits of them into the ground due to the rear overhang and long wheelbase. Also when you get a full size Landcruiser on proper tyres stuck it's really stuck and something of a challenge to pull out again.
If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
There is wisdom in this. I can certainly confirm that the rear overhang of a disco 2 is a distinct liability and its a heavy brute to recover if you do get stuck.If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
I defender 90 is much better - but have you seen the money they are going for these days
Are there any Lada Niva's still serviceable?
OverSteery said:
TurboHatchback said:
That's actually a very good idea. My limited experience of taking large 4x4s (Landcruiser HDJ80s) to pay and play sites is that they are very capable but you'll constantly be bashing bits of them into the ground due to the rear overhang and long wheelbase. Also when you get a full size Landcruiser on proper tyres stuck it's really stuck and something of a challenge to pull out again.
If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
There is wisdom in this. I can certainly confirm that the rear overhang of a disco 2 is a distinct liability and its a heavy brute to recover if you do get stuck.If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
I defender 90 is much better - but have you seen the money they are going for these days
Are there any Lada Niva's still serviceable?
Thanks for the advice all!
P.S. Would love a defender... but they're a fortune!
James Drake said:
So, I've been on a few experience days and really enjoyed off roading. I'm sure that, like most experience centres, it is a watered down version and there is much more fun to be had out in the wild.
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
I can probably help you out here.Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
The first thing to consider is what you'll use the vehicle for. This is critical, as it'll dictate the type, make and model of vehicle you should be looking at.
If you don't own suitable land to drive off road, there are 3 main ways to do it in the UK.
1. Green laning, which technically isn't 'off road' driving, as they are legal roads. But they will encompass off road driving techniques and are usually unpaved.
In the UK green lanes are as a rule 100% passable in most standard 4x4's that have off road ability. e.g. a standard Discovery, Defender type of thing.
This means you can choose pretty much any proper 4x4 and many soft roaders. The off roading will tend to be similar to an experience day or tamer. Sadly there are horrible people who think the ground next to the lanes is their play area, and will piss about tearing it up making a real mess. PLEASE don't end up being one of these tits though.
There are lots of lanes about. However it would be sensible to either go with someone who has done it before, or join a local 4x4 club and attend an organised Green Laning trip.
Green lanes are fun, but you can only teach yourself so much about off road driving. Usually the biggest hurdle on green lanes is they can be stratchy, o you may not want to take a nice motor on them.
Also don't try laning by yourself. At least not until you know what you are doing. Despite how capable 4x4's are, its amazing how easily they can become stuck.
2. Prick & Prat sites.
These are named accordingly, but sadly seem to attract the kind of people you'd often label as "tossers". This isn't to say all sites are like this, nor all the people attending. But you will find a lot of stupid people at them and some very poor and dangerous driving.
In terms of 4x4's. Depends, you can go as extreme as you like. But the phrase all the gear and no idea is certainly true in this regard. And so many of the modified vehicles at places like this are often inferior to standard vehicles, because the muppets have no clue or understanding how the vehicle really works.
And while pissing about on your own or with a mate getting your vehicle constantly stuck may have appeal at first. For me it's a novelty that soon wears off. There is no real structure to driving at sites like this. It's a bit like finding a deserted open car park. You could have fun doing handbrake turns, donuts, etc. But after a while, you'll hanker for some structure and a challenge, such s putting cones out and trying to drive a preset course.
Laning is different, you have a destination to reach. But P&P sites have no objective to attain and nothing to achieve. They can be useful for trying different techniques or parts. But due to other people being there, it is likely a haphazard way of doing it.
3. Competition.
I left this to last, because in all honesty it's probably the best. And not as clear cut as you might think.
This is proper grass roots motorsport. And very affordable, £20-25 a year membership and £20-25 per event entrant fee. There are few motorsports cheaper.
Off road competition consists of many different types of events. Including speed events. But it would be best to start with something more sensible.
Trials events are what you'd probably be interested in. These are events where you have to drive a course on sometimes fairly extreme terrain, similar to Prick & Prat sites. The big difference is, because it's a driven line that is meant to be challenging, you'll find it a lot more difficult than simply driving around a Pay & Play site. In return you'll learn far more about off road driving, control and techniques.
However here's the clever bit
Note that most Pay & Play sites will be circa £25 to enter.
Trials events happen all the time, most clubs will run one event per month and chances are there is more than one club in your local area. A trial event will however need setting up.
So for the cost of annual membership (£20-25) you could get the chance to spend the day setting up some trials sections. This will mean a lot of off road driving. And it'll normally be with another vehicle or two. So a chance to learn from other people, but in a nice controlled environment not full of morons thinking they are a genius behind the wheel (P&P sites...).
In the UK the two main ways to enter trials is via the AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club). They cater for any make of vehicle. But split them into classes.
And the ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs). Who run Land Rover only events.
The main type of entry level trialling is known as RTV (Road Taxed Vehicle). Which means it just needs to be road legal, with suitable recovery points by and large.
________________
So things to consider.
-4x4's are often used for other activities. If you think you'll want to haul or tow with it. Then you'll need a vehicle capable of doing so.
-Consider your use carefully. If laning is likely to be your prime interest. Then consider that there will be long road sections and many hours seat time. So you may want a more comfortable vehicle, rather than a basic one. Also consider how many people might be in the vehicle. Two brothers + partners means you'll want 4 good seats. Or if you 2 adults and 2 children. And if you are going away for a weekend, you'll need a boot able to fit enough luggage in. Roof racks and trailers are not really suited to green lanes.
-Competition. Certain vehicles make better RTV vehicles than others. And you'd probably be disappointed if you were in something difficult to drive or hugely uncompetitive. And obviously if the ALRC appeals, then it'll have to of a specific make as well.
-Spares and upgrades. Unless you have good reason too do otherwise, you may want to buy something that has a good spares and aftermarket. Off roading by it's very nature may mean breaking stuff from time to time. And while a standard vehicle can be very capable, there may be some upgrades you'd be interested in. If it's an oddball vehicle there may be no aftermarket at all and getting some items might prove challenging. To this end, if you live in the UK, you should consider a Land Rover, because it is so well supported, which makes it very easy to use for such activities.
-Vehicle capability. Not all 4x4's are created equally. So depending on what you think you want to use the vehicle for, you may want to consider how capable your chosen vehicle is, in standard trim as well as modified.
For example, a Defender is massively capable with no mods at all. And with some mods is has enough ability for serious off road competitions of an extreme nature.
Whereas something like a Navara pickup is far more limiting. Big overhangs, poor off road suspension and no real aftermarket to speak of. These are far less capable in standard trim and it would take some serious money to make them comparable to a standard Defender.
-Modified or not.
I know in your op you've said about getting a modified Disco. Now, if you know what you are looking at specifically, you can get a good deal. Even if it's just parts to sell on. The trouble is, probably 80-90% of the modified Disco's (and others) out there are piles of crap, with very poor selection of components. This means you are likely ending up with a vehicle that'll drive like crap on the road and even worse, probably perform worse off road than it did when it was standard. So it really is, buy at your own risk. But there is a lot to be said about starting in a standard vehicle and learning what it does well and what it doesn't do well. And going from there. This will be true of any make or model.
-Bits you'll need.
a) Common sense. Most 4x4 incidients happen because people are being stupid.
b) a good tow rope. Something like a Kinetic energy rope is a good idea and can be had for £25.
c) good recovery points, with bracing plates and high tensile bolts. So many accidents are by recovery points failing and resulting in a heavy high speed projectile being thrown towards people or one of the vehicles.
d) tyres. If you are venturing off piste, then normal road tyres are not likely to cut it. Now you don't need to go extreme, but a good AT or MT tyre of appropriate size is a hugely sensible thing.
e) body protection. Unless the vehicle looks like a Defender or a Wrangler, most 4x4's have biggish bumpers front and rear, often plastic. These will often hit the ground and other obstacles off road and are prone to damage. So you may want to trim, remove or replace some bits. It probably isn't essential for your first outing. But as you off road you'll likely find this is a weak area of most modern 4x4's.
f) Lift kits. I advise huge caution here. Many 4x4's do not need a lift kit at all. And many lift kits will result in worse axle articulation and flex off road. However something you'll face, especially on Green Lanes is deep tram line ruts. Which means a low slung 4x4 may get beached easily. So "some" 4x4's may require a lift kit to make them usable on some terrain. I can give an example. A Jeep Cherokee XJ. These ride quite low in standard UK trim, in the US you could opt for an 'Up Country' package witch gave it a factory suspension lift. So if you consider one of these, you will need a lift kit for it. But the critical thing here is, a lifted Cherokee has about the same ground clearance and ride height of a standard Discovery or Defender.... Land Rover products tend to be quite high in standard trim. You do not need to lift a Discovery for the same reasons as you do a Jeep.
As for actual vehicles. Well I have a hit list of ones I'd advise and why, but it's probably best for you to digest what I've written and comment back with your thoughts on it. Feel free to PM if you want more info, I might even be able to point you towards some local clubs.
Much wisdom from 300.
I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
Edited by OverSteery on Friday 5th August 12:46
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