L200 hubs problem
Discussion
Right then.
I managed to get the last little awkward screw off - I had to drill it, but got enough bite halfway through to reverse the drill and uncork the bugger!
The right hand side was VERY gunked up, it took me 20 mins to unscrew the retaining plate because it had to be done with screwdriver taps due to the filth.
The bearing came out in a solid lump of brown grease gunge. Behind it was about another half pint of it.
(The left side, whilst dirty was not this bad...and the grease around the bearing was still fgrease coloured - scraped it all out anyway to re do).
So now, the auto hubs are still in the diesel ready for a massive clean tomorrow - and maybe another soak.
The bearings, retaining plate etc and all the shims and cir-clips are all soaking in a pot of white spirit for the same treatment tomorrow.
I have a pot of grease ready for action.
Definitely put the bearings back in - I think the only thing that would be holding the wheels on without them would be the brake caliper, and there would be some pretty nasty noises to boot. No hubs should be the same as unlocked hubs so yes, the effect will be no 4x4.
I meant to add earlier that whenever I've had to leave anything like a stub axle exposed to the elements overnight I cover it with a carrier bag as a precaution against surface rust, particularly if it's something that bearings run on. If it's a bit greasy you can squish the bag on so it sticks to it.
I meant to add earlier that whenever I've had to leave anything like a stub axle exposed to the elements overnight I cover it with a carrier bag as a precaution against surface rust, particularly if it's something that bearings run on. If it's a bit greasy you can squish the bag on so it sticks to it.
Today's discoveries...(hope you are around Eggman - I need more advice 
)
After a night in white spirit (is that a song?) the retaining plates and bearings were much cleaner as you can see here:
However it was obvious that the right hand side were in worse condition, they did come clean but there is slight pitting on the bearing and the metal plates and they were blacker and dirtier than the others, which as you can see - basically came back clean as new.
When I brought the auto-hubs out of the diesel, the story was very similar.
The one from the left hand side had cleaned up quite well, and with a bit of a fettle and some white spirit is turning and springing relatively well for an old component.
The one from the right, although soaked for 24 hours was (and is) still seized in the "down" position and looks like it is not going to move again. The grease I cleaned out from it is full of metal shrapnel and the top edge (you can see this on the pics) appears to have been worn flat and lost a little flange in the process.
Looks ruined to me.
So I reassembled the bearings etc, and bedded them in with a good dollop of brand new grease. Put the wheels back on and tightened it all up.
Took it for a test drive.
First of all, squeaky from the front wheels somewhere when going slow - especially uphill at under 5 mph, but I think it did this anyway to be honest. But NO sound of the "light rubbing" from the front wheels that I now assume was the ruined hub forcing the average hub to grind lightly.
No sign of the massive noise either - but it was only a short drive and that was intermittent, but I wonder if that was the more ruined of the two hubs being ground down?
So I now have (hopefully) a working 2WD truck, but with the tip of the shaft exposed at the hub.
QUESTIONS>
> Will driving it like this actually do any further damage?
> What is the issue with having the shaft tip exposed?
> What would happen if I selected 4WD in it's current state and drove it?
> I noticed a lot of play in the half-shaft on the ruined side, the shaft tip moves about an inch or more each way and the rubber seal right behind the hub seemed loose. Another problem?
Help
)After a night in white spirit (is that a song?) the retaining plates and bearings were much cleaner as you can see here:
However it was obvious that the right hand side were in worse condition, they did come clean but there is slight pitting on the bearing and the metal plates and they were blacker and dirtier than the others, which as you can see - basically came back clean as new.
When I brought the auto-hubs out of the diesel, the story was very similar.
The one from the left hand side had cleaned up quite well, and with a bit of a fettle and some white spirit is turning and springing relatively well for an old component.
The one from the right, although soaked for 24 hours was (and is) still seized in the "down" position and looks like it is not going to move again. The grease I cleaned out from it is full of metal shrapnel and the top edge (you can see this on the pics) appears to have been worn flat and lost a little flange in the process.
Looks ruined to me.
So I reassembled the bearings etc, and bedded them in with a good dollop of brand new grease. Put the wheels back on and tightened it all up.
Took it for a test drive.
First of all, squeaky from the front wheels somewhere when going slow - especially uphill at under 5 mph, but I think it did this anyway to be honest. But NO sound of the "light rubbing" from the front wheels that I now assume was the ruined hub forcing the average hub to grind lightly.
No sign of the massive noise either - but it was only a short drive and that was intermittent, but I wonder if that was the more ruined of the two hubs being ground down?
So I now have (hopefully) a working 2WD truck, but with the tip of the shaft exposed at the hub.
QUESTIONS>
> Will driving it like this actually do any further damage?
> What is the issue with having the shaft tip exposed?
> What would happen if I selected 4WD in it's current state and drove it?
> I noticed a lot of play in the half-shaft on the ruined side, the shaft tip moves about an inch or more each way and the rubber seal right behind the hub seemed loose. Another problem?
Help
Edited by Gorvid on Monday 18th January 15:21
Well, that's a disappointment!
I would guess that your squeak, if not brake related, is coming from the less good wheel bearing. Was there any blueing there indicating that it had run hot in the past? Looks to me like it may have done. (Also, did you pull the disk assembly off to regrease the inner bearings? If not, that could explain the noise).
In your position, I would consider replacing the dodgy bearings just to be on the safe side. If you notice it make chirping or shrieking noises in the meantime then pull over asap because it'll seize imminently - and so might your wheel, which is a fairly exciting experience when it happens unexpectedly.
In the short term, I would be less worried about the free wheeling hubs not working. You'll probably find a replacement on Ebay; either one auto hub, a pair of manual ones or solid drive flanges would do equally well. I suspect the only bad effect of running around with one hub locked and the other not will be on your fuel consumption; probably fairly marginal because you'll just be turning the front differential all the time (n.b. now would be a good time to check there's plenty of oil in it!). I wouldn't drive without the hubs unless you can improvise some way of preventing muck getting into the bearings and preventing the driveshaft from going rusty.
The play in the driveshaft doesn't sound too promising. Can you see if it is to do with the CV joint? (Could just be that the driveshaft has come out of engagement with the hub - is there anything other than the split pin to keep it in place?)
I would guess that your squeak, if not brake related, is coming from the less good wheel bearing. Was there any blueing there indicating that it had run hot in the past? Looks to me like it may have done. (Also, did you pull the disk assembly off to regrease the inner bearings? If not, that could explain the noise).
In your position, I would consider replacing the dodgy bearings just to be on the safe side. If you notice it make chirping or shrieking noises in the meantime then pull over asap because it'll seize imminently - and so might your wheel, which is a fairly exciting experience when it happens unexpectedly.
In the short term, I would be less worried about the free wheeling hubs not working. You'll probably find a replacement on Ebay; either one auto hub, a pair of manual ones or solid drive flanges would do equally well. I suspect the only bad effect of running around with one hub locked and the other not will be on your fuel consumption; probably fairly marginal because you'll just be turning the front differential all the time (n.b. now would be a good time to check there's plenty of oil in it!). I wouldn't drive without the hubs unless you can improvise some way of preventing muck getting into the bearings and preventing the driveshaft from going rusty.
The play in the driveshaft doesn't sound too promising. Can you see if it is to do with the CV joint? (Could just be that the driveshaft has come out of engagement with the hub - is there anything other than the split pin to keep it in place?)
Edited by Eggman on Monday 18th January 21:26
Seeing as the one auto hub is knackered - I was going to simply drill out the "auto lock" bit of both of them, putt it apart and then refit them both as empty covers to hide the driveshaft - whilst looking for a replacement set.
I still can't be sure what the very loud noise I experienced was - but I thought driving with no auto-hubs was preferable to driving with one working and one grinding up and putting steel filings everywhere?
What will actually happen if I use 4x4 now - with nothing to lock or unlock the hubs ???
That should work OK, assuming you manage to get the seized one to unlock. All that'll happen if you engage 4WD is the driveshafts will turn at the same rate as the back axle but won't be driving anything.
An alternative that you might consider is getting them both welded up in the locked position - a local garage might do that in return for a drink if you ask them nicely and give them the hubs loose so they don't have to muck around too much. Then you'll have 4WD and you'll be able to hold the driveshafts in with the split rings.
(Definitely work out where this play in the driveshaft has appeared from before making a decision about gutting the hubs. If the driveshafts are able to disengage, you need to think about what happens at the limits of the suspension travel and whether there's any chance of bending the driveshafts as a result).
The source of the nasty noises is an interesting one; I half wonder if the 'good' hub was clattering about because the stuck hub was driving the axle. I think its driveshaft would have been turning backwards because of the diff, but I'm having difficulty visualising exactly what would have been going on. Alternatively, you might just have been hearing the stuck hub chewing up all that shrapnel inside it - that would make a racket.
An alternative that you might consider is getting them both welded up in the locked position - a local garage might do that in return for a drink if you ask them nicely and give them the hubs loose so they don't have to muck around too much. Then you'll have 4WD and you'll be able to hold the driveshafts in with the split rings.
(Definitely work out where this play in the driveshaft has appeared from before making a decision about gutting the hubs. If the driveshafts are able to disengage, you need to think about what happens at the limits of the suspension travel and whether there's any chance of bending the driveshafts as a result).
The source of the nasty noises is an interesting one; I half wonder if the 'good' hub was clattering about because the stuck hub was driving the axle. I think its driveshaft would have been turning backwards because of the diff, but I'm having difficulty visualising exactly what would have been going on. Alternatively, you might just have been hearing the stuck hub chewing up all that shrapnel inside it - that would make a racket.
Eggman said:
The source of the nasty noises is an interesting one; I half wonder if the 'good' hub was clattering about because the stuck hub was driving the axle. I think its driveshaft would have been turning backwards because of the diff, but I'm having difficulty visualising exactly what would have been going on. Alternatively, you might just have been hearing the stuck hub chewing up all that shrapnel inside it - that would make a racket.
That is what I thought - the good hub doing the quieter noise (that I heard on and off from that wheel and has now gone). And the massive juddering shaking noise possibly the rubbish hub having some kind of grinding fit when the other hub did manage to lock in ???Eggman said:
An alternative that you might consider is getting them both welded up in the locked position - a local garage might do that in return for a drink if you ask them nicely and give them the hubs loose so they don't have to muck around too much. Then you'll have 4WD and you'll be able to hold the driveshafts in with the split rings.
Right now I have no locking hubs - so am permanently free wheeling (is that correct?) so 2WD works as normal (I thought the L200 was front wheel drive - surely this is wrong, it MUST be driving the rear wheels in 2WD right???) so if I engage the 4WD lever I assume the shafts at the front spin but transfer nothing to the wheels?The idea I had was to remove the locking mechanism from my auto hubs and use them as a glorified cover.
This idea of welding them in the locked position - how would that work? Would I risk transmission wind up or something from running locked all the time?
Also - I wonder if the ruined one is capable of that, it depends how "locked" works.
I would need to know how to force the locked position.
Edited by Gorvid on Tuesday 19th January 01:34
Gorvid said:
Right now I have no locking hubs - so am permanently free wheeling (is that correct?) so 2WD works as normal (I thought the L200 was front wheel drive - surely this is wrong, it MUST be driving the rear wheels in 2WD right???) so if I engage the 4WD lever I assume the shafts at the front spin but transfer nothing to the wheels?
The rear wheels will be driven when it is in 2WD - otherwise you wouldn't be going anywhere without the hubs installed! If you engage 4WD the front shafts will turn, but they won't be connected to anything.Gorvid said:
The idea I had was to remove the locking mechanism from my auto hubs and use them as a glorified cover.
I'm not sure what'll be holding the driveshafts in the hubs without that split ring. I suspect that leaving the ends floating about might end in tears, so you need to check that.Gorvid said:
This idea of welding them in the locked position - how would that work? Would I risk transmission wind up or something from running locked all the time?
Also - I wonder if the ruined one is capable of that, it depends how "locked" works.
I would need to know how to force the locked position.
You may need to play about with the hubs a bit, and depending on how they work I think there are two options here. Ideally, when they're locked it'll be possible to put a little bit of weld between the inners and outers just to stop them unlocking. That way, the drive will be transferred through the locked mechanism that's designed to take the load. The other option would apply if the hubs turn out to be unlocked when they're in a suitable position to be welded - then you would need to rely on the strength of the weld to transfer the drive so you would need to ensure much better weld penetration. (I think your jammed hub is locked, otherwise your 4WD wouldn't work at all, and looking at your pictures it looks as if it could be welded in that position. Result, hopefully).Also - I wonder if the ruined one is capable of that, it depends how "locked" works.
I would need to know how to force the locked position.
There's no risk from running with the hubs locked as long as you're in 2WD. All that'll happen is the driveshafts, differential and front propshaft will be turned by the wheels as you drive along. However, they'll be disengaged from the rest of the running gear inside the transfer box so there's no risk of winding up. Nearly all part time 4 wheel drives work like this - freewheeling hubs are a fuel saving optional extra, but most standard hubs are solid.
Eggman said:
I'm not sure what'll be holding the driveshafts in the hubs without that split ring. I suspect that leaving the ends floating about might end in tears, so you need to check that.
At the moment it is driving fine and the auto-lock parts are off, the driveshaft is just sticking out the end.Still, welding them locked gives me more options.
Do you know if it is as simple as the ring being depressed = locked / up = unlocked?
Gorvid said:
At the moment it is driving fine and the auto-lock parts are off, the driveshaft is just sticking out the end.
Still, welding them locked gives me more options.
Do you know if it is as simple as the ring being depressed = locked / up = unlocked?
Not sure whether the ring moving is a cause or effect of them being locked - I would need to fiddle about with them to get a better idea, but some of the descriptions on the web make it sound like other hubs are locked by sliding the inner bit in and out. I expect most hubs work similarly. Still, welding them locked gives me more options.
Do you know if it is as simple as the ring being depressed = locked / up = unlocked?
I would be a bit worried about driving around with the auto-locking hubs removed, though; firstly because there doesn't appear to be much preventing road grime from getting at the outer bearing, and secondly because I think the auto hub snap ring may retain the driveshaft. Were you to do something that got the suspension at full droop (like driving over a hump backed bridge), I would be concerned that the driveshaft spline may escape far enough out the back of the wheel hub that it wouldn't slide back in cleanly when the suspension compressed. In that case, you would soon discover whether the force required to bend the driveshaft is greater than that required to break the differential casing, something you might be better off not knowing. I would need to experiment with jacking the body off the ground until the front wheel leaves the ground and then seeing how far the driveshaft spline can be withdrawn before I was happy about that - or just be really careful around humps and bumps in the road.
You could also experiment with reinstalling the hubs as they are, especially now you've cleaned some of the swarf and shrapnel out of them. I would first give the seized one a few sharp taps (not mighty blows!) with a hammer to see if it frees off now the diesel has thoroughly penetrated it. If the noises reappear with the hubs installed, you'll know the cause for certain.
If you don't want to reinstall them and are sure that the driveshaft isn't going to do anything untoward, then I suggest improvising something to protect the spline and the bearings from wet and grit until you source some new bits. Personally, I would visit a pound shop for a couple of the squat kitchen storage tins for teabags, cut a big hole in the bottom for the driveshaft with some bolt holes round it and attach it using short bolts bought for the purpose. With some gaffer tape holding the lid on and a squirt of satin matt black paint, it probably wouldn't look too shameful!
Hmmm...
When you say the "auto hub snap ring" do you mean the cir-clip holding the auto hub bit itself?
As I say, I was considering removing the auto mechanism from the inside of the bit I soaked in diesel and slipping it back on as a cover. But now I have decided I want to know how to lock them permanently
I think I will replace them tomorrow and see what happens.
Eggman said:
firstly because there doesn't appear to be much preventing road grime from getting at the outer bearing, and secondly because I think the auto hub snap ring may retain the driveshaft
The outer bearing is protected by the retaining (screw on) plate, and then the other plate with the screws going through it - and about half a pint of grease.When you say the "auto hub snap ring" do you mean the cir-clip holding the auto hub bit itself?
As I say, I was considering removing the auto mechanism from the inside of the bit I soaked in diesel and slipping it back on as a cover. But now I have decided I want to know how to lock them permanently
I think I will replace them tomorrow and see what happens.
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